32626 replies to this topic

[ManuManu]

austinfan, on 14 April 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

If you're throwing to Celek, Avant and Harbor underneath, and McCoy in the flat, all Maclin and DeSean have to do is run deep and intermediate routes and clear out the underneath zone.  A big physical 3rd WR (that is, more physical than Avant) becomes a luxury.

This offense is fine, not as good as if they had Peters, but easily top ten and probably top five in the league.
The defense needs the upgrading.

I don't think anyone disagrees that the defense needs to be upgraded more than the offense, but let's not pretend that the Eagles have zero holes at WR and TE. There's room to upgrade. A big, physical, athletic target at WR would be a nice addition.

[Chase the Fan]

ManuManu, on 14 April 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

I don't think anyone disagrees that the defense needs to be upgraded more than the offense, but let's not pretend that the Eagles have zero holes at WR and TE. There's room to upgrade. A big, physical, athletic target at WR would be a nice addition.

I would actually like to see at least one significant upgrade to this offense at the skill positions before we go into the season.

The way I look at it, we're definitely in a position right now where we can push this thing over the top with one or two moves.
We have starters at every position...but I think we lack dynamic players beyond them.

Players like Jason Avant, Clay Harbor, Dion Lewis, Riley Cooper, Chad Hall could all be upgraded.
Some of those guys may still have a little more potential within themselves that we haven't seen to this point...but I think bringing in players that can put heat on these guys in camp is the way to go right now.

I'm not saying that the above names are bad players, I'm just saying that they're not very dynamic....I don't really see an element that they bring to the field that forces defenses to account for.

[ManuManu]

Chase the Fan, on 14 April 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

I would actually like to see at least one significant upgrade to this offense at the skill positions before we go into the season.

The way I look at it, we're definitely in a position right now where we can push this thing over the top with one or two moves.
We have starters at every position...but I think we lack dynamic players beyond them.

Players like Jason Avant, Clay Harbor, Dion Lewis, Riley Cooper, Chad Hall could all be upgraded.
Some of those guys may still have a little more potential within themselves that we haven't seen to this point...but I think bringing in players that can put heat on these guys in camp is the way to go right now.

I'm not saying that the above names are bad players, I'm just saying that they're not very dynamic....I don't really see an element that they bring to the field that forces defenses to account for.

Agreed. Those guys are good enough to make and play on NFL teams. But are they good enough to make a difference? There's a big difference between the two.

On offense, I think the Eagles could use a young swing tackle to groom as Dunlap's replacement and hopefully eventually take over for either Herremans or Peters. The No. 2 or 3 TE can use an upgrade. We need a backup RB. We could use a bigger, more physical WR.

Beyond backup RB, I don't think we have any pressing needs on offense, but it would be nice to take a shot at a talented guy earlyish in the draft. I love what the Packers did last year taking Randall Cobb in Round 2. They didn't need a wide receiver, but he gave them a different look and gave them another piece that teams have to game plan for.

[austinfan]

You can upgrade practically any player on any roster, but please.

What is wrong with Avant in the slot other than he's not Welker?  He's pretty darn consistent.
What is wrong with Harbor?
In two seasons, 34 throws, 22 catches, 234 yards.
I mean how is he supposed to impress as the 6th option in the receiving game? [acutally 7th, Cooper had 35 throws last year, Harbor 19]
Harbor 8.6 yards per throw
Cooper 9.0 yards per throw
Celek  8.4 yards per throw
Maclin 8.9 yards per throw
DeSean 9.3 yards per throw
Avant  8.4 yards per throw
McCoy  4.6 yards per throw
How about 2010?
DeSean  11.0 YPT
Maclin  8.4 YPT
Avant  7.7 YPT
McCoy 6.6 YPT
Celek  6.4 YPT
Cooper 6.4 YPT
Hall 6.4 YPT
Schmitt 5.4 YPT

[The Eagles win!]

The biggest thing is to stop thinking in terms of positions and start thinking in terms of specific players.  It's great to say we need to upgrade the defense more than the offense, but the real question is with who?

The DT class is deep, but there is really only one guy I covet, and that's Cox.  Otherwise, from my perspective, we're just adding another guy to the rotation who will likely be solid but not spectacular.  So do you take a guy like Worthy, or do you take a player such as Floyd who truly could be a star?  Which guy is going to have more impact on each season over the next 8 years?  I can tell you that I think Floyd will win you more games than Brockers, Poe, Worthy, etc will.  So why would I take a DT over him?  Kuechly will probably win us more games than Floyd, but that's more a reflection of the dreck we have at LB more so than Kuechly's superiority to Floyd as a football player.

So yeah, I want to upgrade the defense too... but I'll be damned if I take an inferior defensive player just to check off the "improve defense" box.  You have to look at individual prospects, not positions, and the way I see it there are a lot of situations where the offensive player is going to be a better prospect and help you win more games.

[ManuManu]

austinfan, on 14 April 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

You can upgrade practically any player on any roster, but please.

What is wrong with Avant in the slot other than he's not Welker?  He's pretty darn consistent.
What is wrong with Harbor?
In two seasons, 34 throws, 22 catches, 234 yards.
I mean how is he supposed to impress as the 6th option in the receiving game? [acutally 7th, Cooper had 35 throws last year, Harbor 19]
Harbor 8.6 yards per throw
Cooper 9.0 yards per throw
Celek  8.4 yards per throw
Maclin 8.9 yards per throw
DeSean 9.3 yards per throw
Avant  8.4 yards per throw
McCoy  4.6 yards per throw
How about 2010?
DeSean  11.0 YPT
Maclin  8.4 YPT
Avant  7.7 YPT
McCoy 6.6 YPT
Celek  6.4 YPT
Cooper 6.4 YPT
Hall 6.4 YPT
Schmitt 5.4 YPT

Well nevermind. We have the perfect group of weapons.

[ferrisbueller84]

ghor50, on 14 April 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

If the Eagles have decided that they do indeed want a WR of Blackmon's skill set, then I'd definitely make that trade. I've said before that Blackmon is the next T.O. without being a head case.

However, I'm of the belief that this team has other, more pressing needs. When you couple that with the fact there's good value for wide receivers in the 2nd & 3rd rounds, I wouldn't pull the trigger if I'm the Eagles.

Hey now!!  I said that!!!

[pgcd3]

austinfan, on 14 April 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

You can upgrade practically any player on any roster, but please.

What is wrong with Avant in the slot other than he's not Welker?  He's pretty darn consistent.
What is wrong with Harbor?
In two seasons, 34 throws, 22 catches, 234 yards.
I mean how is he supposed to impress as the 6th option in the receiving game? [acutally 7th, Cooper had 35 throws last year, Harbor 19]
Harbor 8.6 yards per throw

Your argument has a major flaw. If Harbor was better they'd have thrown to him more. There is no question about that. It's not like the offense didn't need someone to step up at times last year especially in the red zone

[Chase the Fan]

Harbor is not a bad player.
But I think that it's pretty clear that he could be upgraded.
Avant isn't a bad player.
But I think it's pretty clear that the offense could benefit from a more dynamic player being the field at times.

[ManuManu]

pgcd3, on 14 April 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Your argument has a major flaw. If Harbor was better they'd have thrown to him more. There is no question about that. It's not like the offense didn't need someone to step up at times last year especially in the red zone

The benefit of having a pretty good group of starters is to take high upside backups, too. Other than SS, DT, SAM and backup RB, there aren't any glaring holes on this team.

Just because a guy is "good enough" doesn't mean we shouldn't try to upgrade his spot. Beyond Maclin and DJax, I don't really care for any of our WRs. Yes, Avant is OK as a No. 3, but we can do much better. I would like to have a guy who is dangerous enough that he helps open things up for those around him. With Avant, it's the exact opposite. He benefits from the attention to others.

As for Harbor at backup TE, if the Eagles didn't draft a TE, I wouldn't care that much. And if they decided to draft someone like Green in the third round, I wouldn't be against it either.

[austinfan]

Harbor didn't get thrown to because he was the 6th or 7th option.
Celek didn't get thrown to until the final four games when Vick started dumping it off.

There is no point taking a WR with a high draft pick anymore unless the player is truly elite, and I don't think any WR in this draft qualifies.
Look at the top 20 WRs in yards last year:
Welker (UDFA), Cruz (UDFA), Nelson (2nd rd) Steve Smith (3rd rd), Brandon Marshall (4th rd), Wallace (4th rd), Colston (7th rd), A Brown (5th rd), Nate Washington (UDFA), Steve Johnson (7th rd), Brandon Lloyd (4th rd)
10 of 20 picked 4th round or later.

Better off trading down and taking 2 or 3 WRs and let them fight it out in camp.

[Mike P]

The only WR's in the nfl I would really take top 5 are Calvin Johnson, Fitz, and probably Andre Johnson.

[austinfan]

Chase the Fan, on 14 April 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

Harbor is not a bad player.
But I think that it's pretty clear that he could be upgraded.
Avant isn't a bad player.
But I think it's pretty clear that the offense could benefit from a more dynamic player being the field at times.

Is it?  I mean sure if you can find the next Gronkowski.
But Harbor has turned himself into an above average blocker and has good hands and 4.64 speed.

It ain't that easy to upgrade that, let's see how fast Fleener runs when he bulks up to 255-260 lbs (he'll have to get that big to block in the NFL, Graham needs work with his blocking, but he ran 4.56 at 260 lbs, so there was no question he had a NFL TE body).

Green will need two years before he'd see regular action in the NFL.

[Nocturnal]

McClellin reminds me of Jared Allen in a lot of ways. I've been watching some stuff on him and I see that same kind of active, yet very calculated player. His use of angles in his rush are very natural. He tests well, nothing really sticks out about his athleticism as extreme, and yet you can see that he's a very natural athlete. He's plenty intelligent enough to play SLB, but I think you leave him at DE. As a rusher and run defender he's constantly adjusting, recalculating....very active and very smart. Don't know if it's an Idaho thing, but the more I watch him the more I see Jared Allen.

Like the kid's story too. Them boys on the east side of the mountains live an older life....well...the ones who don't hire migrants anyway....

[Chase the Fan]

ManuManu, on 14 April 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

The benefit of having a pretty good group of starters is to take high upside backups, too. Other than SS, DT, SAM and backup RB, there aren't any glaring holes on this team.

Just because a guy is "good enough" doesn't mean we shouldn't try to upgrade his spot. Beyond Maclin and DJax, I don't really care for any of our WRs. Yes, Avant is OK as a No. 3, but we can do much better. I would like to have a guy who is dangerous enough that he helps open things up for those around him. With Avant, it's the exact opposite. He benefits from the attention to others.

As for Harbor at backup TE, if the Eagles didn't draft a TE, I wouldn't care that much. And if they decided to draft someone like Green in the third round, I wouldn't be against it either.

Exactly, our hand shouldn't be forced either way.
I think we have players that we can feel comfortable moving forward with, but on the other hand...there is room for impact players on this roster.

My focus, or I guess I should say, what I hope the Eagles' focus going into this point in the off-season is to keep an eye out for players that can add pages to our playbook.
Sure, Clay Harbor is solid...but Coby Fleener would expand the playbook and give defenses a different dynamic to defend and account for.

Clay Harbor's production to this point could have been executed by just about anybody that we put in that position.

[Connecticut Eagle]

The greatest opportunity to upgrade the offense is at FB/Big RB.  Remember Weaver?  Put someone with his ability in the same backfield as the current version of McCoy.  Having a fullback with some wiggle and that can run a variety of routes puts even more pressure on a defense.  It also expands the playbook in the redzone.

Maybe Havili is the guy.  I don't see much in the draft.  Maybe we make a trade.  But that is the position I would be focusing on.

I wouldn't start looking to upgrade on Cooper and Harbor just yet.  They still haven't had a real off-season to mature as pros.

[mattwill]

The latest Eagles Blog training poster . . .

[ghor50]

ManuManu, on 14 April 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

I don't think anyone disagrees that the defense needs to be upgraded more than the offense, but let's not pretend that the Eagles have zero holes at WR and TE. There's room to upgrade. A big, physical, athletic target at WR would be a nice addition.

Agreed. The name of the game is getting better. And to do that, you have to continually upgrade your personnel.

You don't upgrade your superstar players;  but when you have a chance to upgrade average starters and backup guys, you do it.

Guys like Harbor, Avant and Jordan can all be upgraded. Celek can be upgraded in the long run, too. It doesn't mean that they're bad players, but you have to try to get better. That's the only way you can win a Super Bowl.

We certainly haven't been good enough to win a Super Bowl with the current roster. So it surprises me that anyone would object to upgrading the roster at areas where it's less than stellar.

[ghor50]

Chase the Fan, on 15 April 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

Exactly, our hand shouldn't be forced either way.
I think we have players that we can feel comfortable moving forward with, but on the other hand...there is room for impact players on this roster.

My focus, or I guess I should say, what I hope the Eagles' focus going into this point in the off-season is to keep an eye out for players that can add pages to our playbook.
Sure, Clay Harbor is solid...but Coby Fleener would expand the playbook and give defenses a different dynamic to defend and account for.

Clay Harbor's production to this point could have been executed by just about anybody that we put in that position.

You've nailed it, Chase. By adding a guy like Coby Fleener, we could give the defense fits. With DeSean and Jeremy on the outside, that totally opens Fleener up to work the middle of the field.

And he'd also help us in the red zone and on 3rd downs as well. I've watched a ton of tape on Fleener this week and I LOVE the idea.

Count me in.

[Nocturnal]

Connecticut Eagle, on 15 April 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

The greatest opportunity to upgrade the offense is at FB/Big RB.  Remember Weaver?  Put someone with his ability in the same backfield as the current version of McCoy.  Having a fullback with some wiggle and that can run a variety of routes puts even more pressure on a defense.  It also expands the playbook in the redzone.

Maybe Havili is the guy.  I don't see much in the draft.  Maybe we make a trade.  But that is the position I would be focusing on.

I wouldn't start looking to upgrade on Cooper and Harbor just yet.  They still haven't had a real off-season to mature as pros.

I swear I remember about 2-3 months ago that Pete said he would be on the look out for a guy who he could use in a Havili role. Havili has a good level of overall talent. It's probably more of an issue of use in that particular system and also the fact that Havili likely needs to add some bulk for taking on NFL LBs instead of college LBs.

[Nocturnal]

Some prospects you've probably never heard of to keep your eye on.

Former Oregon State defensive back Brandon Hardin visited with the Seahawks recently, as per the ever-vigilant Aaron Wilson of Scout.com. Hardin has been on my radar for a while, by virtue of being the most obvious 'Seahawky' pick of all time (I jest,... but seriously). Hardin played in the Pac-12. He's a tall, strong, fast defensive back with no clearly defined position at the next level as a CB/S tweener. He's very strong on special teams. He's coming off a missed season due to injury and thus his stock has taken a serious hit. All this adds up to Seahawks interest.

Most analysts put him at safety at the next level, much like Boise State CB George Iloka. Hardin's physical measureables are intriguing - at 6'3, 216, he ran the 40 in 4.36, had a broad jump of 10'4, and put up 225 pounds 24 times, all pretty impressive numbers for a player his size. He certainly fits the bill as a potential 'big nickel' prospect that the Seahawks appear to be so interested in, and if he could be grabbed in the mid to late rounds, might have 'steal' written all over him. Hardin is definitely one guy to keep your eye on.

Several more players to add to the list, first - four courtesy of Seahawks.net. According to their information, we can add Portland State defensive back Deshawn Shead, Idaho linebacker Korey Toomer, Northern Illinois WRNathan Palmer and Montana OT Jon Opperud to our list of prospect visits. Again, none of these are official as announced by the team, but certainly paint a picture as we piece together who the Seahawks are allegedly bringing in.

Of most interest to me are Deshawn Shead and Korey Toomer. Shead played cornerback early in his college career at 6'2, 220 pounds before making the change to safety in 2010. He had some very impressive test numbers, running the 40 in 4.49, putting up 24 reps on bench, registering a 38" vert, and a 6.76 3-cone drill - again, all very solid numbers for a player his size. He's a small-school guy - probably a late rounder, and I can see why the Seahawks have interest, based on his production at Portland State. In three years, he had nine interceptions, 21 pass breakups, and made 147 tackles.

Korey Toomer is another guy that's been on my radar after I saw on Twitter that the Seahawks worked him out personally at his pro day. Toomer certainly fits the bill with speed (4.48 40) and length (6'2 1/4", nearly 80" wingspan). He played on the inside at Idaho but I'm not sure where the Seahawks may potentially see him. Interestingly, he had 10.5 tackles for a loss in 2011, to go along with his 4.0 sacks, four pass breakups, three quarterback hurries, one interception, one fumble recovery and one blocked kick. Solid production, even if at a lower level. He's a late round prospect, from what I can tell.

[InfiniteSeriesN]

ManuManu, on 14 April 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

I don't think anyone disagrees that the defense needs to be upgraded more than the offense, but let's not pretend that the Eagles have zero holes at WR and TE. There's room to upgrade. A big, physical, athletic target at WR would be a nice addition.

a very nice addition. that's why TEW has convinced me we should go after blackmon.   we need to get better in the RZ.

[RealCrippler]

I like Cody Fleener...I'm just not sure I want to trade a 2 and a 3 to move up and get him. That will likely leave us thin at slot CB.

[HazletonEagle]

wow. I was hearing about the 2 soccer players that suffered cardiac arrest on the field recently, so I watched some videos on youtube. Puts things in perspective.
The one who died was just unbelievable. He was smiling about something that just happened in the game, and then all of a sudden he is hunched over and falling on to his back going into cardiac arrest. Incredible how quick things change.

[ghor50]

RealCrippler, on 15 April 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

I like Cody Fleener...I'm just not sure I want to trade a 2 and a 3 to move up and get him. That will likely leave us thin at slot CB.

Why would we have to trade a 2 and a 3 to get Coby Fleener? He's going in the early 2nd round.

[HazletonEagle]

ghor50, on 15 April 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Why would we have to trade a 2 and a 3 to get Coby Fleener? He's going in the early 2nd round.

I think its coming from Matt's mock draft on scoutsnotebook where we traded a 2nd and 4th to trade back into the first round and get him at 31

[RealCrippler]

ghor50, on 15 April 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Why would we have to trade a 2 and a 3 to get Coby Fleener? He's going in the early 2nd round.

I'm operating under the scenario that he'll go in RD1. He'll likely be #1 on the board for SF/NYG's 1st round picks. Harbaugh coached Fleener and NYG has no healthy TE on their roster except for Martellus Bennett.Do you think he's lasting to our 1st 2nd rounder?

[HazletonEagle]

RealCrippler, on 15 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

I'm operating under the scenario that he'll go in RD1. He'll likely be #1 on the board for SF/NYG's 1st round picks. Harbaugh coached Fleener and NYG has no healthy TE on their roster except for Martellus Bennett.Do you think he's lasting to our 1st 2nd rounder?

I think the 49ers will take a RB like Lamar Miller, but I do agree he will be of major interest to the Giants.

[superbowlsoon]

InfiniteSeriesN, on 15 April 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

a very nice addition. that's why TEW has convinced me we should go after blackmon.   we need to get better in the RZ.

I've convinced myself for months the Eagles will Target Clemson's Dwayne Allen in the second round. It just so happened he's in on the "Diamonds in the Rough" draft spotlight on the Eagles homepage....but when you think about what Fleener brings in comparison to Allen, you get much more bang-for-the-buck with Allen (and he can actually block). Fleener is a player you take on a team that isn't already loaded with receivers like the Eagles are.....because he's essentially a big receiver.

I've looked at the second round and I'm thinking the likely hood that Allen is on the Eagles radar is great. He is immediately in the Red Zone package with Celek and crew. You won't have to reach for him either like you would with Fleener.

Pencil me in for Dwayne Allen in the second round for the Birds. I've only posted one mock thus far and he's on it. He had terrific games for Clemson despite their identity crisis on offense. When Allen was the focal point and the primary target....Clemson's offense was much more effective (from my seat on the couch).

[superbowlsoon]

ghor50, on 15 April 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Why would we have to trade a 2 and a 3 to get Coby Fleener? He's going in the early 2nd round.

If that happened, I can say with certainty - i would be disappointed in the move.