94 replies to this topic

[NoDecaf]

Before Luke wasn't athletic enough, now he's a workout warrior a la Mamula.

Work the hate with a little more effort will ya? Don't be lazy with it.

[birdman#12]

GangGreen*2011*, on 28 February 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

The Steelers linebackers are always featured because they play in a 34.
Do you hear them talking about their defensive line?

In contrast, do you hear the Giants talk about their linebackers?
No, they boast about their defensive line because they're a 43.

Now, certainly teams can have great linebackers in a 43
(Ravens and Bears are prime examples).

And of course I DO believe moving forward any team
need great linebackers to counter the modern passing game,
no matter what type of defense they're playing in.

But the Giants have certainly showed what an elite pass rush can do
to make up weaknesses in other areas on the defense.

Middle linebacker is the premier position on an entire defense.....A good MLB sets the tone, leads the defense, develops the swagger.  The eagles haven't had it since trotter.  

And say what you want about the giants, none of the eagles linebackers would start there.  

And stop with this idiotic 3-4 vs 4-3...that sh--  is so overblown....great linebackers are great linebackers,  good linebackers are good linebackers......lousy linebackers are lousy linebackers.

What are you telling me that farrior, harrison, woodley and timmons would struggle in a 4-3? LMAO.

[Solomon]

NoDecaf, on 28 February 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Before Luke wasn't athletic enough, now he's a workout warrior a la Mamula. Work the hate with a little more effort will ya? Don't be lazy with it.

The difference is that Mamula never really was that great on the field. Kuechly is the real deal and will be a good MLB for years...Unfortunately just not on this team.

[Clamdigger]

birdman#12, on 28 February 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Middle linebacker is the premier position on an entire defense.....A good MLB sets the tone, leads the defense, develops the swagger.  The eagles haven't had it since trotter.  

And say what you want about the giants, none of the eagles linebackers would start there.  

And stop with this idiotic 3-4 vs 4-3...that sh--  is so overblown....great linebackers are great linebackers,  good linebackers are good linebackers......lousy linebackers are lousy linebackers.

What are you telling me that farrior, harrison, woodley and timmons would struggle in a 4-3? LMAO.

Because if there's one thing that we've learned from this past season, it's that high-profile defensive players will always play at expected levels, regardless of scheme.

Put Clay Matthews in at MLB in at 4-3 D and let me know how that works out.

[ferrisbueller84]

birdman#12, on 28 February 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Middle linebacker is the premier position on an entire defense.....A good MLB sets the tone, leads the defense, develops the swagger. The eagles haven't had it since trotter. And say what you want about the giants, none of the eagles linebackers would start there. And stop with this idiotic 3-4 vs 4-3...that sh-- is so overblown....great linebackers are great linebackers, good linebackers are good linebackers......lousy linebackers are lousy linebackers. What are you telling me that farrior, harrison, woodley and timmons would struggle in a 4-3? LMAO.

Yes...I'm saying that
Let's use the 9r's...put Willis and Bowman at OLB and move their OLB's to ILB...tell me how that works. Or lets take Aldon Smith and make him our MLB!!!!!!!  I can't believe the ish some of you people come up with.

[143]

bison63, on 27 February 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Looks like K crushed the combine and ran a 4.5 40 among other things which pretty much means you can almost forget about him being there at 15.

When you mesh this with his on the field production and glowing reviews you have a perfect storm of GM interest.

Before you start bashing and saying he's not worth going at 15 or something along these lines - none of that matters, because the perception is that he can play and you can bet that other GM's who actually value the LB position are licking their chops right now. Many of those GM's are on teams who pick a head of the Eagles and no doubt there are several GM's in love with this guy who wouldn't have any qualms about trading up above the Birds to snatch him.

I'm not hopeful that there's any chance of this guy being available when we pick at 15 to be honest.

http://profootballta...-very-good-day/

I like this guy.  IF they stay at 15, I'd love for them to take them.  That being said, the Eagles are smarter than every one of us and view some LB in the 4th round as being "a hair away" from Kuelchy.

Tulloch and Kuechly would be a pretty good fix to the defense.

[EagleVA]

birdman#12, on 28 February 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

And stop with this idiotic 3-4 vs 4-3...that sh--  is so overblown....great linebackers are great linebackers,  good linebackers are good linebackers......lousy linebackers are lousy linebackers.

Thanks for pointing this out to the ignorant.

[maddeneagle]

143, on 28 February 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

I like this guy.  IF they stay at 15, I'd love for them to take them.  That being said, the Eagles are smarter than every one of us and view some LB in the 4th round as being "a hair away" from Kuelchy.

Tulloch and Kuechly would be a pretty good fix to the defense.

Tulloch and Kuechly would be dumb, they both play the middle. I think Tulloch wouldn't fix ish either way, but that's just me

[Clamdigger]

Haha, some of you guys are gems. The whole 3-4 vs. 4-3 LB thing is OVERBLOWN!? Are you ****ting me?

You guys are brutal.

[EagleVA]

NoDecaf, on 28 February 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Work the hate with a little more effort will ya? Don't be lazy with it.

Kuechly isn't a hitter, look at his so-called highlights, what you see is drag down arm tackling, over and over.   Who in their right mind wants a drag down arm tackler playing MLB?

As far a coverage goes, he looks like Will Robinson because he's Lost In Space.

Personally, I want no parts of this guy, he looks like a Casey Matthews clone.

[GoNL]

EagleVA, on 28 February 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Kuechly isn't a hitter, look at his so-called highlights, what you see is drag down arm tackling, over and over.   Who in their right mind wants a drag down arm tackler playing MLB?

As far a coverage goes, he looks like Will Robinson because he's Lost In Space.

Personally, I want no parts of this guy, he looks like a Casey Matthews clone.

Not sure what you're talking about. He can hit all right.

[EagleVA]

GoNL, on 29 February 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Not sure what you're talking about. He can hit all right.

I'm not sure if your realize it or not, but that's an animation from EA Sports, aka a figment of someone's imagination......a Rocky Balboa if you will.

[voodoochile75]

Actually, I want everyone to keep talking up Kuechly.  That way hopefully he won't be there at 15 and we can take Upshaw or drop back, gain a pick, and pick up Hightower.

[eephraim]

I didn't like his movement in drills I saw. He did awesome in the 40 and seems to have very nice straight line speed.

I'd still take him over any LB on the roster currently.

[eephraim]

Clamdigger, on 28 February 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Haha, some of you guys are gems. The whole 3-4 vs. 4-3 LB thing is OVERBLOWN!? Are you ****ting me? You guys are brutal.

It is overblown. People here love to talk 3-4 vs 4-3 players but all you need to do is ask the players if that matters.

[birdman#12]

ferrisbueller84, on 28 February 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Yes...I'm saying that
Let's use the 9r's...put Willis and Bowman at OLB and move their OLB's to ILB...tell me how that works. Or lets take Aldon Smith and make him our MLB!!!!!!!  I can't believe the ish some of you people come up with.

That's bullsh--.

Talent like that would learn the defense and adapt, and yes, they would all play at a high level.  

I can't believe some of the ignorance you people have.....

[Sbuckets]

I would love him, look like we may have to trade up a bit to get him.

[gregorynoble]

AceofSpades, on 27 February 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

And why is it every time somebody brings something up, race has to come into play?

"Clarence Oh there they go. There they go, every time I start talkin 'bout boxing, a white man got to pull Rocky Marciano out their a**. That's their one, that's their one. Rocky Marciano. Rocky Marciano. Let me tell you something once and for all. Rocky Marciano was good, but compared to Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano ain't ****."

[ShakeThatMonkey]

Clamdigger, on 28 February 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Haha, some of you guys are gems. The whole 3-4 vs. 4-3 LB thing is OVERBLOWN!? Are you ****ting me?

You guys are brutal.

welcome to TATE. Where if you're having a bad day, you can come here and laugh til' your heat's content

[NWMontana]

Hightower is better suited as a W9 MIKE.......   Just ask me

[E v 2.0]

Quote

birdman#12, on 28 February 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:
And stop with this idiotic 3-4 vs 4-3...that sh-- is so overblown....great linebackers are great linebackers, good linebackers are good linebackers......lousy linebackers are lousy linebackers.

EagleVA, on 28 February 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Thanks for pointing this out to the ignorant.

   You guys arent serious are you?

3-4 vs 4-3 is overblown?

[killdawabbit]

birdman#12, on 29 February 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

That's bullsh--.

Talent like that would learn the defense and adapt, and yes, they would all play at a high level.  

I can't believe some of the ignorance you people have.....

Yep. Just ask Warren Sapp...

[Rodney_Zero]

There are certain players that can play in both the 3/4 and 4/3

When Sapp played in Bob ryans 3/4 how did he do?, well he sucked, when they went 4/3 he was like his Buc days, if Vilma is so great, why did the Jets trade him after going to the 3/4. I could go on, and on, and on.....

[EhsanT]

I'm just curious....how many people here have actually watched a Kuechly game?

Anyone who has will tell you that his stats are inflated. Yes, he led the nation in tackles, but that doesn't automatically translate to the NFL.

Look at the majority of Kuechly's plays...they are arm tackles made down field chasing a ball carrier. Very rarely did he fill the hole and take on ball carriers or attack downhill.

Whether you like it or not, at all levels of football, LB's have to play downhill. That's regardless of scheme.

For example, if a team runs Iso at you, you don't sit there and wait for the FB to come to you...you have to attack downhill, fill the hole, and meet him in the backfield. If it's a toss play, you scrape across face but after 1-2 steps you have to get downhill.

Now watch Kuechly's film....he doesn't do that well. In fact, watch his highlight videos....even in those, he doesn't do that well and in the NFL that's a major problem.


Secondly, he doesn't do a good job disengaging from blockers. You have to be physical and set your hands, and then rip and shed the blocker in order to make the play. His tackles were all either downfield in pursuit or were him flopping at a RB's feet and managing to trip him up. In the 2 BC games I watched live and the 3 I have film on, I NEVER saw him manage to shed a block.


As for coverage skills....yes, he's athletic, as shown by his combine workout....but that isn't the only thing you need. You have to have the ability to read route concepts as they develop. Teams will send a WR or RB across in front of you to bait you up, only to throw to another receiver or TE running behind you. Or they'll send a RB into the flat to widen you out and then throw the Dig or Curl behind you. Watching his film, Kuechly seemed lost in coverage. He just kind of stood around trying to read the QB rather then getting depth on his drops.


Now, does that all mean he'll be a bad LB? Of course not. I think he'll be a solid NFL MLB. I've mentioned before that he is eerily similar to Paul Poz when he came out of Penn St and like Poz, I think he'll be a solid MLB. However, I DO NOT believe he's the next Brian Urlacher as many seem to think he is and I truly believe that many people will be dissapointed when he turns out to be an average player.

Is he better then our LB's? Yes....but that doesn't make him worth the 15th overall pick.

[EhsanT]

Oh, and there is a major difference between a 3-4 and a 4-3 LB.


Someone was stupid and said that Harrison and Woodley would play in a 4-3......they would. THEY WOULD BE DEFENSIVE ENDS!!!!

Remember, 3-4 OLB's are generally undersized 4-3 DE's. That's why a guy like Graham was a "tweener" coming out. 3-4 teams would play him at OLB and 4-3 teams at DE.

On the inside, 3-4 DL's are 2-gappers. They set their hands and read/react based on the flow of the OL across from them. Their job is to keep blockers off the ILB's. That's why a guy like Warren Sapp had trouble in that scheme. DT's like Tommie Harris and Warren Sapp are at their best when they get up the field into the backfield to make plays. A 3-4 scheme doesn't allow them to do that. That's part of the reason you rarely hear about 3-4 DL's other then the NT. They don't get the big sacks, the big tackles, etc. They do the gritty work to let the LB's roam free.


3-4 teams also want their ILB's to be more physical. Generally 1 of them has a similar role to the 4-3 MLB, run around and make tackles. In SF it's Willis and in Pittsburgh it Timmons. The other ILB is the "plug" or "buck" LB. His job is to basically take one for the team and when he reads flow, he attacks and trys to blow it up, allowing the MLB (willis/Timmons) to make the tackle.

That's why in the 3-4 scheme the LB's get all the hype....the entire scheme is built around them.



In the 4-3 scheme, it's the DL's. There is no way Freeney could play DE in a 3-4...he'd have to play OLB. It's why Mario Williams wasn't kept at DE when they Texans switched, they moved him to OLB because that's the key player.



So, if we are staying in a 4-3 scheme, which we clearly are, then we need to address LB, that's true, but we need to improve our DT's. We need a stud DT to make plays inside, allowing our MLB, whoever it is, to make plays. A 1st round MLB won't make a difference if the OG's are getting to him cleanly.

Look at the Giants. They signed a substitute teacher midway through the season and won the super bowl because their D-line dominated. Does that mean we should have scrubs at LB? Of course not, but the key to a 4-3 defense is the DL play and that's where we need to get an impact player. We can have a 2nd tier MLB as long as our DL plays well and if they dont, they it doesnt matter if we have Urlacher or Willis, we're in trouble.

[killdawabbit]

EhsanT, on 03 March 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

So, if we are staying in a 4-3 scheme, which we clearly are, then we need to address LB, that's true, but we need to improve our DT's. We need a stud DT to make plays inside, allowing our MLB, whoever it is, to make plays. A 1st round MLB won't make a difference if the OG's are getting to him cleanly.

Look at the Giants. They signed a substitute teacher midway through the season and won the super bowl because their D-line dominated. Does that mean we should have scrubs at LB? Of course not, but the key to a 4-3 defense is the DL play and that's where we need to get an impact player. We can have a 2nd tier MLB as long as our DL plays well and if they dont, they it doesnt matter if we have Urlacher or Willis, we're in trouble.

It's actually even more subtle than that. Sticking to the 4-3 (because that's what is relevant), it also depends on what style of front you use. Different styles require different types of LBs, particularly in the middle.

In 2010 the Eagles used what is called a 2 gap front. Each lineman (particularly the DTs) was responsible for 2 gaps. The idea being to tie up the offensive line and clog running lanes. This, theoretically, also tends to keep the MLB cleaner. What you really want in this case is a MIKE that is fast and athletic so that he can run to the ball and make the play. Chaney is a good example of this. In his starts he was up and down, but more up. And he had a couple of impressive enough games that people started talking about his potential. Chaney is an athletic kid. He was the fastest LB at the combine that year. He is at his best when he can locate the ball and run to the play.

In 2011 the Eagles used what is called a 1 gap line. Each lineman is responsible for 1 gap. The idea being for the linemen to shoot into the backfield and be disruptive. Obviously this leaves the LBs (particularly the MIKE) dealing with blockers more often. So they have to have at least a modicum of skill there. In addition this puts more pressure on the MIKE to be in the right place at the right time. He has to have a "feel" for the flow of a play. Be what is often termed "instinctive", allowing him to fill the correct gap at the correct time. Chaney has OK "instincts", but that is not his strength. As I wrote earlier, he is more of a see ball, get ball type of guy. This is why he was mostly mediocre to bad for the bulk of his time in the middle last season.

Where a guy like Jamar fits best behind a 1 gap line is at WILL where he will deal with less blockers and can use his athleticism to chase down plays. I would love to see a camp battle for the spot between him and Rolle. I think it would bring out the best in both of those guys and give the Eagles the best oppourtunity for quality LB play without expending resources needed elsewhere. Everybody wins.

Unfortunately, at least in my estimation, the majority of the LBs the Eagles currently have are either best suited to WILL or as Nickel LBs in the current defense. As it stands Matthews (assuming he progresses this offseason) or Lloyd are the only guys that look like they might be able to compete as depth at the MIKE spot. I see none of these guys as a quality SAM option.

[EhsanT]

Thanks for the info. I know the difference between a 1-gap and 2-gap scheme but unfortunately, there are a lot of morons on these boards who dont. I'll play devils advocate and ask you this....who in the NFL is considered a quality SAM LB?

This isn't 10 years ago where a guy like Carlos Emmons could play SAM. With the athletes that teams have at TE, it's next to impossible to have a 250 lb SAM who can keep up in coverage. Todays SAM LB's are guys that 10 years ago would have been WILL LB's....and todays WILL LB's are guys that would have been SS's. Even guys like Dansby and DJ Williams play on the inside. The "big name" OLB's are all WILL LB's.

IMO people put too mutch into a LB's weight and name. The most important thing we need, especially at SAM LB, is a guy who can keep up in coverage and IMO, Chaney can get that done. Personally, I think he's the only LB on our roster who has proven he can get it done as a starter. Rolle showed glimpses at WILL last year and obviously we need a MLB.

IMO, if we get a good MLB, that will fix a lot of our holes. We don't need to bring in 2-3 new starters. With the amount of nickel defense we play we really only need 2 good LB's. The 3rd can be a guy like Rolle or Fokou who will only play 15-20 snaps a game anyway.



On a side note....I'll never forget about 5-6 years ago when Derrick Brooks got released from TB.....the number of retards on here calling for us to sign him as a SAM LB was unreal....they didn't realize the difference between a SAM and WILL and all they looked at was the numbers, not realizing that there was no way he'd get nearly the same results as a SAM.....drove me nuts....almost as bad as the URLACHEEERRRRZZZZZZZ fad a few years ago

[killdawabbit]

EhsanT, on 04 March 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Thanks for the info. I know the difference between a 1-gap and 2-gap scheme but unfortunately, there are a lot of morons on these boards who dont. I'll play devils advocate and ask you this....who in the NFL is considered a quality SAM LB?

This isn't 10 years ago where a guy like Carlos Emmons could play SAM. With the athletes that teams have at TE, it's next to impossible to have a 250 lb SAM who can keep up in coverage. Todays SAM LB's are guys that 10 years ago would have been WILL LB's....and todays WILL LB's are guys that would have been SS's. Even guys like Dansby and DJ Williams play on the inside. The "big name" OLB's are all WILL LB's.

IMO people put too mutch into a LB's weight and name. The most important thing we need, especially at SAM LB, is a guy who can keep up in coverage and IMO, Chaney can get that done. Personally, I think he's the only LB on our roster who has proven he can get it done as a starter. Rolle showed glimpses at WILL last year and obviously we need a MLB.

IMO, if we get a good MLB, that will fix a lot of our holes. We don't need to bring in 2-3 new starters. With the amount of nickel defense we play we really only need 2 good LB's. The 3rd can be a guy like Rolle or Fokou who will only play 15-20 snaps a game anyway.



On a side note....I'll never forget about 5-6 years ago when Derrick Brooks got released from TB.....the number of retards on here calling for us to sign him as a SAM LB was unreal....they didn't realize the difference between a SAM and WILL and all they looked at was the numbers, not realizing that there was no way he'd get nearly the same results as a SAM.....drove me nuts....almost as bad as the URLACHEEERRRRZZZZZZZ fad a few years ago

That post wasn't really in response to you. It was more to go in depth on what you were talking about and maybe educate a few people.

One of the big mistakes that people make is assuming that coverage is the most important thing for a SAM. It really depends on how the defense is set up. The SAM does have to cover, but it's not as integral as most think. The big thing is to be able to get a good jam at the line knocking TEs off their routes and run with them for the first 10 yards or so. Most often (obviously depending on the coverage called and what the offense does) they will then pass them off. It's a rare LB that can keep up with even an average NFL TE in coverage for long.

Another important duty of the SAM is to be able to set the edge and re-direct the play toward the MIKE. This involves taking on a lot of FBs and pulling linemen. Interestingly enough, Gocong was actually pretty good at this. Most people don't recognize it, but his issues were elsewhere.

Basically SAM is a dirty work position. They rarely put up amazing stats.

Chaney was the SAM for the first few games of the season and he was pretty bad. He struggled to be where he was supposed to in coverage and got washed out way too often against the run. He is either a MIKE behind a 2 gap line or a WILL behind a 1 gap.    

Some guys that were or are pretty good at the spot are Manny Lawson, Lance Briggs, and Erin Henderson.

[EhsanT]

Manny Lawson is a horrible SAM LB....he was a DE in college and played OLB in a 3-4 in SF. He's not that good as a SAM in the 4-3 and IMO should be playing DE, the same way Kamerion Wimbley should be. But Cincy and Oakland for some reason play them at OLB.

Briggs plays WILL LB....in fact, he plays the exact same position Derrick Brooks played in the Tampa-2.

Finally, Henderson also plays WILL LB. His brother his the Mike and Chad Greenway is the SAM.

Speaking of Greenway, he is, IMO, the best SAM LB in the NFL.


As for Chaney...he did have issues at SAM but that was due to two reasons. He was adjusting to playing that positon, and he had no help at MLB. As you said, the SAM is a grunt position and needs to do all the dirty work to let the MLB and WILL make the big plays. There were a lot of times where Chaney would do his job but Matthws would mess up the play.


However, I am delighted that you're actually a knowledgable fan to discuss this stuff with....there are too many dumb@sses around here.

[killdawabbit]

EhsanT, on 05 March 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

Manny Lawson is a horrible SAM LB....he was a DE in college and played OLB in a 3-4 in SF. He's not that good as a SAM in the 4-3 and IMO should be playing DE, the same way Kamerion Wimbley should be. But Cincy and Oakland for some reason play them at OLB.

Briggs plays WILL LB....in fact, he plays the exact same position Derrick Brooks played in the Tampa-2.

Finally, Henderson also plays WILL LB. His brother his the Mike and Chad Greenway is the SAM.

Speaking of Greenway, he is, IMO, the best SAM LB in the NFL.


As for Chaney...he did have issues at SAM but that was due to two reasons. He was adjusting to playing that positon, and he had no help at MLB. As you said, the SAM is a grunt position and needs to do all the dirty work to let the MLB and WILL make the big plays. There were a lot of times where Chaney would do his job but Matthws would mess up the play.


However, I am delighted that you're actually a knowledgable fan to discuss this stuff with....there are too many dumb@sses around here.

OK maybe recognizeable would have been a better way to put it. Briggs and Henderson both play the strong (left - most offenses are right handed) side. The same side as Lawson. Greenway was a SAM at Iowa and plays WILL (right side) for the Vikings. And yes, he is a very good player.

It's possible the Chaney's issues were due to inexperience at the position. He had played MIKE and WILL in college and only MIKE at the NFL level at the time. It just seems to me that playing WILL where he can use his speed and athleticism to chase down plays would take better advantage of his skill set.