QB clock on Vick, for the Cards game, surprising.....
#1
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:32 PM
Now for those saying Vick holds onto the ball too long, I want you to watch the video or hell even some of the video and when you see pressure on the QB look at the clock. I'll give you a hint its bad.
Vick typically has between 2.2 and 2.5 seconds to get rid of the ball. During the last Pats game they were boasting that Brady was getting rid of the ball in under 3.5 seconds.
Just a side note on that blitz that Vick fumbled the ball it was just over 1 second on a safety blitz that was pretty much lined up over the Tackle/TE. He ran right around everyone. Now I argue about Vick being able to see this because well the safety was where he should be, blitz or no blitz. Vick could have rolled out to the right but the play wasn't designed for that.
At just over 1 second its hard to argue that Vick held onto the ball too long.
Most of Vicks complete passes came at the 2.5 avg second mark some as high as 3 second mark or just over.
Now the key to watching this video is not when Vick is able to release the ball but when there is actually pressure on him. THAT determines the amount of time he has to throw.
Bottom line is our protection sucks badly. This Oline is no where near as good as we are being told it is.
Also as a note on the Cards blitz's Vick has rought 1-1.3 seconds of time to throw the ball. Alot of the time he is in the gun. By the time he gets the ball and raises his head, he pretty much has under 1/2 a second to throw the ball.
Im sorry but this isnt about the QB, this post isnt meant to defend Vick its to illuminate the fact that our Protection for ANY QB is simply not there.
Now lets look further AVG sack times for other QB's in the league:
http://www.footballo...-sack-deviation
Here is the avg time for all the QB's from 2011 to be sacked: 3.0 seconds.
The lowest AVG sack time was 2.7 seconds. Vick on the majority of sacks he took was under 1.5 seconds!
In other words when pressure is coming Vick has on avg 1/2 the time of the avg NFL QB to get rid of the ball.
Its a telling stat, and one that shows that our Oline is sub par and our routes are far to deep.
#2
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:38 PM
im asking these same things in onother thread also. people are claiming that everything is in place for vick to beat the blitz, hot reads, o-line and backs are all on the same page and ready to beat the blitz but vick is just holding the ball
#3
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:41 PM
#4
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:45 PM
blackskimmer, on 25 September 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:
Now for those saying Vick holds onto the ball too long, I want you to watch the video or hell even some of the video and when you see pressure on the QB look at the clock. I'll give you a hint its bad.
Vick typically has between 2.2 and 2.5 seconds to get rid of the ball. During the last Pats game they were boasting that Brady was getting rid of the ball in under 3.5 seconds.
Just a side note on that blitz that Vick fumbled the ball it was just over 1 second on a safety blitz that was pretty much lined up over the Tackle/TE. He ran right around everyone. Now I argue about Vick being able to see this because well the safety was where he should be, blitz or no blitz. Vick could have rolled out to the right but the play wasn't designed for that.
At just over 1 second its hard to argue that Vick held onto the ball too long.
Most of Vicks complete passes came at the 2.5 avg second mark some as high as 3 second mark or just over.
Now the key to watching this video is not when Vick is able to release the ball but when there is actually pressure on him. THAT determines the amount of time he has to throw.
Bottom line is our protection sucks badly. This Oline is no where near as good as we are being told it is.
Also as a note on the Cards blitz's Vick has rought 1-1.3 seconds of time to throw the ball. Alot of the time he is in the gun. By the time he gets the ball and raises his head, he pretty much has under 1/2 a second to throw the ball.
Im sorry but this isnt about the QB, this post isnt meant to defend Vick its to illuminate the fact that our Protection for ANY QB is simply not there.
Now lets look further AVG sack times for other QB's in the league:
http://www.footballo...-sack-deviation
Here is the avg time for all the QB's from 2011 to be sacked: 3.0 seconds.
The lowest AVG sack time was 2.7 seconds. Vick on the majority of sacks he took was under 1.5 seconds!
In other words when pressure is coming Vick has on avg 1/2 the time of the avg NFL QB to get rid of the ball.
Its a telling stat, and one that shows that our Oline is sub par and our routes are far to deep.
Stop it the trolls will be in here trolling HARD on this one. Any dope can see that o-line is getting Vick killed. It's the play calling. Teams don't respect the run bc 90% of the time they know the Eagles are passing so they are just running as fast as they can to the point of the qb with multiple people.
#5
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:46 PM
it's the OL and the matador backs not helping out .....
the Giants smell fresh meat and are salivating right now
#6
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:46 PM
blackskimmer, on 25 September 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:
Anyone that isn't blatantly trolling or has a hate boner for Vick can see this. He gets the snap and there's almost always some sort of pressure in his face. Our oline is TERRIBLE.
#7
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:48 PM
I think if the line can give Vick an extra second, he can at least get to his second or maybe his third option. I'm shocked that we aren't rumored to be searching for some depth at offensive line.
#8
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:49 PM
#9
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:50 PM
#10
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:51 PM
judunno, on 25 September 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:
According the trolls its more than enough time for him to make the pass, do his taxes, tie his shoelaces and not get hit. I've recently started ignoring post by blatant dopes.
Vick hasn't been at his best, but for the Cards game I place the onus of blame on the playcalling not the qb. They even did a poll on sport radio and most fans agreed that the o-line pretty much was the main reason among many the offense looked so terrible.
#11
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:52 PM
#12
Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:55 PM
#13
Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:00 PM
I think its play calling that needs the most change. Why do play action if u dont ever run the ball????!
But vick does need to read the blitz better.....Before no one would blitz him because they were scared he'd take off. Well now they figured out to blitz faster Def. personnel. IE DBs or fast LBs (Daryl Washington).
Thats why he needs to improve the blitz reading but at the same time we need to run the ball to keep ppl off his back.
#14
Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:03 PM
MR-CYN, on 25 September 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:
McNabb22005, on 25 September 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:
I think its play calling that needs the most change. Why do play action if u dont ever run the ball????!
But vick does need to read the blitz better.....Before no one would blitz him because they were scared he'd take off. Well now they figured out to blitz faster Def. personnel. IE DBs or fast LBs (Daryl Washington).
Thats why he needs to improve the blitz reading but at the same time we need to run the ball to keep ppl off his back.
#15
Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:10 PM
CalgaryFan77, on 25 September 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:
Are you serious have you been reading this bull crap on these boards. Even Andy Reid blames Michael Vick. Saying he's the QB for now. What does that mean, "FOR NOW. Then you have the Eagles QB expert fans screaming for Foles to take over. How many times have I watched the Defences bearing down on him as soon as that ball is snapped. Then people coming out saying he is holding onto the ball to long. That's where all of the interceptions are coming from,no time. They need to give the man an O-line so that he has time to at least look for his receivers, run the Damn Ball, or let him play like Michael Vick and not Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. It's pitiful.
#16
Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:15 PM
vic92353, on 25 September 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:
Tom Brady and Petyon Manning couldnt play like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning behind this mess.
#17
Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:16 PM
blackskimmer, on 25 September 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:
Tom Brady and Petyon Manning couldnt play like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning behind this mess.
#18
Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:05 PM
play 1 - vick makes first defender miss..has clean pocket...choose to run right for short gain
play 2- vick abandons clean pocket and runs right into pressure for an incomplete pass.
play 3- clean pocket. batted ball. incomplete pass
play 4- screen pass. well read by cards defense.
play 5- good protection. good throw. first down. vick takes hit.
play 6-all day in the pocket. cards bring delayed blitz and sack vick at over 4 second mark.
play 7-great protection. batted ball. nearly intercepted
play 8-great protection. great throw to celek. first down
play 9- good protection. vick moving laterally. freeze. harbor is wide open over the middle. vick took eyes off of down field attempts to run. fumble.
play 10- great protection. overthrown to jackson downfield. he had a step.
play 11- good job avoiding free rusher. freeze. rolls right instead of stepping back up into pocket. takes sack.
play 12- blitz picked up well. overthrown to jackson. should have been defensive holding.
play 13- great protectioin. overthrown to celek.
play 14-good protection. 4 yard completion
play 15-screen play. no blitz coming. short gain.
play 16-great protection. first down completion to johnson on crossign route.
play 17-all day protection !!! screen pass to celek? short gain.
play 18-all day protection !!! good throw. first down.
play 19-good protection. freeze. bad decision throw away in double coverage. rewind. desean jackson was never looked at in single coverage runing deep.
play 20-great protection. vick runs for first down. takes big hit.
play 21- great protectioin. great throw complete to jackson to the 1 yard line.
play 22- good protection. vick has open receiver in left flat. holds ball. throws away.
play 23- blitz up the middle picked up. harbor wide open !!! ball thrown away.
play 24- safety blitz undetected. avant open. vick's eyes never left celek. sack fumble. the blitz got home fast but you can't lock onto receivers in red zone.
play 25-good protection. completion.
play 26-good protection. brown drop.
play 27-good protection. good throw. first down.
play 28-great protection. late throw to open avant. first down. vick takes big hit.
play 29-all day protection !!! vick scrambles for 2 yards.
play 30-great protection. first down pass to jackson.
play 31- protection break down. vick makes first guy miss then takes sack.
play 32-great protection. vicks throws worm burner to avant. takes hit.
play 33-good protection. pass complete. first down.
play 34-shady confused about protection assignment. vick sacked.
play 35-blitz picked up. great protection. great catch on a high throw to avant.
play 36-blitz picked up by shady. freeze. vick abandons clean pocket and throws ball away. has receiver open over the middle.
play 37-good protection. horrible throw. incomplete.
play 38. good protection. toss to brown. first down.
play 39-great protection. vick holds ball for 4.12 seconds before getting celek killed on 2 yard pass.
play 40-eek. two protection breakdowns. freeze. never attempts to make first guy miss in pocket. abandoned at first sign of pressure and ran himself into big trouble.
play 41-great protection. first down completion.
play 42-pressure comes up the middle. vick overthrows jackson.
play 43-blitz . throw away. receivers open.
play 44- blitz. throw away. receivers open.
play 45-blitz. screen to jackson? bounced.
#19
Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:17 PM
bobbywizdum, on 25 September 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:
play
Wow, based on your play by play break down, we have an all star, all pro offensive line. They had only 4-5 bad plays. I must have missed somethng.
#20
Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:20 PM
daftpunk, on 25 September 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:
#21
Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:32 PM
2) play: 2.06
3) 1.24
4) 2.18
5) 2.08
6) 3.24
7) 2.18
8) 3.11
9) 2.86
10) 3.22
11) 1.25
12) 2.16
13) 1.11
14) 2.21
15) 2.21
16) 2.30
17) 2.24
18) 2.20
19) 3.21
20) 2.14
21) 2.12
22) 2.27
23) 2.20
24) 2.10
25) 1.01 (vick fumble in redzone, shady F'd up pass protect)
26) 2.00
27) 2.10
28) 2.10
29) 2.23
30) 6 seconds no one open ran up middle
31) 3.03
32) 1.28
33) 3.02 (6 guys blocking)
34) 2.09
35) 1.1 second
36) 1 second 6 guys blocking
37) 1.14 second again 6 guys blocking
38) 2.06
39) 1.29
40) 4.12
41) 2.00
42) 3.17
43) 2.11
44) 1.17
45) 1.11
46) 1.03
Ok, outside of a VERY few instances where exactly does he hold on to the ball to long? I see a bunch of 1-1.5 second plays on here.
Our line was HORRIBLE up the middle, our blitz pick up by our backs was equally as bad.
On the fumble by Vick in the redzone, shady shifted from left to right to block, leaving Vicks back side un protected.
He DOES NOT HOLD ONTO THE BALL TO LONG. The pressure he faces is substantial. Those times are not even comparable to the 3 second mark for sacks. Not even close.
As a closing note I want to emphasize that alot of the time the Cards defense was in nickel base. Not exactly a pressure package.
Listen I know what im seeing and im seeing a QB who gets too little time for plays to develop.
BTW i cannot overstate just how bad Bell was this game. There could have been holding calls on him all day long.
Ill openly admit that Vick didnt have his best game, my point is any QB would be very hard pressed to perform under this.
#22
Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:43 PM
blackskimmer, on 25 September 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:
2) play: 2.06
3) 1.24
4) 2.18
5) 2.08
6) 3.24
7) 2.18
8) 3.11
9) 2.86
10) 3.22
11) 1.25
12) 2.16
13) 1.11
14) 2.21
15) 2.21
16) 2.30
17) 2.24
18) 2.20
19) 3.21
20) 2.14
21) 2.12
22) 2.27
23) 2.20
24) 2.10
25) 1.01 (vick fumble in redzone, shady F'd up pass protect)
26) 2.00
27) 2.10
28) 2.10
29) 2.23
30) 6 seconds no one open ran up middle
31) 3.03
32) 1.28
33) 3.02 (6 guys blocking)
34) 2.09
35) 1.1 second
36) 1 second 6 guys blocking
37) 1.14 second again 6 guys blocking
38) 2.06
39) 1.29
40) 4.12
41) 2.00
42) 3.17
43) 2.11
44) 1.17
45) 1.11
46) 1.03
Ok, outside of a VERY few instances where exactly does he hold on to the ball to long? I see a bunch of 1-1.5 second plays on here.
Our line was HORRIBLE up the middle, our blitz pick up by our backs was equally as bad.
On the fumble by Vick in the redzone, shady shifted from left to right to block, leaving Vicks back side un protected.
He DOES NOT HOLD ONTO THE BALL TO LONG. The pressure he faces is substantial. Those times are not even comparable to the 3 second mark for sacks. Not even close.
As a closing note I want to emphasize that alot of the time the Cards defense was in nickel base. Not exactly a pressure package.
Listen I know what im seeing and im seeing a QB who gets too little time for plays to develop.
BTW i cannot overstate just how bad Bell was this game. There could have been holding calls on him all day long.
Ill openly admit that Vick didnt have his best game, my point is any QB would be very hard pressed to perform under this.
look at the play and how it unfolds not just the clock. i gave you a breakdown of the whole play not just "when vick released the ball". As you see some of the pressure is real...some of it is self inflicted. there were several instances in which the ball was held too long and several more where the open target was never seen or looked at which is my biggest concern. The surveying of the field.
#23
Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:02 PM
bobbywizdum, on 25 September 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:
1-2 seconds is not enough time for a qb to go through a full set of progressions. it takes a second for receivers to shed coverage right off the line or for a route to develop.
So if Vick is getting on average 2-3 seconds before the pressure is getting home. That hold on to the ball statement too long seems a bit. . . off. You don't call "HIKE!" and the play is already in development. On avg. I'm willing to bet that most Eagle offensive plays that are not runs take about 3-5 sec. to develop.
I thin that's the point you're missing Vick has between 1-2 seconds (3 is like huge) before pressure is getting home on him.
#24
Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:07 PM
kmass88, on 25 September 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:
So if Vick is getting on average 2-3 seconds before the pressure is getting home. That hold on to the ball statement too long seems a bit. . . off. You don't call "HIKE!" and the play is already in development. On avg. I'm willing to bet that most Eagle offensive plays that are not runs take about 3-5 sec. to develop.
I thin that's the point you're missing Vick has between 1-2 seconds (3 is like huge) before pressure is getting home on him.
#25
Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:21 PM
#26
Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:27 PM
bobbywizdum, on 25 September 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:
I AM looking at the whole video. My times are pressure based. 3 seconds is an acceptable amount of time for a QB to find someone to throw to. Any longer and your asking for trouble. Vick comes no where close to either having 3 seconds or holding onto the ball for the 3 seconds.
Having a "open" receiver is a some what misconceived notion. If your first two options are you X and your Y receiver by the time you get to your Z receiver your Y could pop open but if you have time your going closer so your going to go to your X receiver because he was instructed to come back to the ball.
Its not a matter of "seeing" the open receiver, its having the receiver come open when he should be open. THAT is the difference.
You also have to remember that when Marty calls a play (for the record it is typical to have 2 plays called in a huddle, when you hear "kill kill" that means they are going to play number 2 based on defense, and no that doesnt mean if you see a blitz a lot of the time its based on where the safeties are) he will have Desean on a go route, Maclin in a deep post and Avant on a crossing pattern underneath.
Vick will Y first for Desean, look to see if he has a step, if not then go to his Z Maclin which if he is not open then he can check down to Avant on the crossing route. The problem is Vick doesnt have time to usually get to his 3rd read and he certainly doesnt have time to go back and re-read Z or Y.
When he escapes the pocket and runs to one side, now the receivers must come back to the ball, and Vick is limited to 1/3 of the field to throw to based on mechanics. If he roll right its even worse.
My point is Vick doesnt have time to go 3rd and 4th reads, alot of the time he had enough time for his 1st read and that was it.
You can see this stat based on his "hurried" number for the Cards game.
Every bit of evidence is based on the video and its quite clear we are not providing adequate protection.
#27
Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:30 PM
bobbywizdum, on 25 September 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:
play 1 - vick makes first defender miss..has clean pocket...choose to run right for short gain
play 2- vick abandons clean pocket and runs right into pressure for an incomplete pass.
play 3- clean pocket. batted ball. incomplete pass
Play 1- The defender gets pressure AND hands on Vick and forces Vick to evade, Vick is now on the OPPOSITE hash mark, he's anything but in the pocket and there are no olinemen in front of him so I don't know what pocket you are talking about.
Play 2- In 2 seconds Vick has 2 defenders closed in on him, there is no clean pocket, if he moves up the defender will easily sack him.
Play 3 - Vick releases the ball in 1 second but the protection was good this time.
#28
Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:34 PM
Vick 2 JMac, on 25 September 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:
Play 1- The defender gets pressure AND hands on Vick and forces Vick to evade, Vick is now on the OPPOSITE hash mark, he's anything but in the pocket and there are no olinemen in front of him so I don't know what pocket you are talking about.
Play 2- In 2 seconds Vick has 2 defenders closed in on him, there is no clean pocket, if he moves up the defender will easily sack him.
Play 3 - Vick releases the ball in 1 second but the protection was good this time.
really as i said ...in play 1 vick elludes first rusher....freeze.....the pocket is no clear but he runs right for short gain....that is exactly what happened.
in play 2 the pocket is not collapsed and noone touched vick !!! instead of stepping up he left the pocket.
play 3 good protection ball batted at the line.
#29
Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:42 PM
bobbywizdum, on 25 September 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:
you watch the tape.
#30
Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:44 PM
blackskimmer, on 25 September 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:
Having a "open" receiver is a some what misconceived notion. If your first two options are you X and your Y receiver by the time you get to your Z receiver your Y could pop open but if you have time your going closer so your going to go to your X receiver because he was instructed to come back to the ball.
Its not a matter of "seeing" the open receiver, its having the receiver come open when he should be open. THAT is the difference.
I'm trying to see both points here. The video does a great job showing elapsed time after the snap and bobbywizdum does a great job of providing context to time.
But on this statement from you that I quoted, I have a serious question:
Maybe I am being too demanding and maybe I expect a certain level of awareness and presnap reading to be more attainable than it really is but isn't defensive alignment and positioning...along with certain movements by defensive players at the snap....supposed to quickly cue the QB into what to expect and resort his progression options? That's a god's honest serious question.
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