55 replies to this topic

[ason44]

Vex, on 02 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Why do the Vick defenders all act like the people saying Vick needs benched is he's the only problem? He's clearly not, but you're about as smart as the average rock if you think Vick hasn't been a problem.

Because it sounds a lot more like they see him as the only problem. Take a look at the volume of the threads and comments and news about benching Vick or potentially benching Vick.

[IggleWalt]

InfiniteSeriesN, on 03 November 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

and last year vick was ranked 14th, which would place him above average and nowhere near 'suck'.

So we are pushing for average now? Were you screaming for Mcnabb when he got traded?

InfiniteSeriesN, on 03 November 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

more talent where? not at o-line. <--and that's the point.

What about last season when the OL was good or do we forget that? You need to quit being so emotional when it comes to Vick and see the facts for what they are. You are being too emotional about Vick's QB rating instead of watching him play on the field.

[Vex]

ason44, on 03 November 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

Because it sounds a lot more like they see him as the only problem. Take a look at the volume of the threads and comments and news about benching Vick or potentially benching Vick.

Or it could be the most important position on the team is playing some awful football. That could have something to do with it.

[Lloyd]

InfiniteSeriesN, on 03 November 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

so vick is horrible enough to push the o-line into looking like they're among the three worst lines in the league while still performing at the level of an average QB?

um ok.

Why do you have such a boner for "average"?

[ChimpKelly]

Lloyd, on 03 November 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Why do you have such a boner for "average"?

Dude I Fed this girl at a party last night, she was sooo average!! It was awesome!

[BayAreaLennie]

phillyphan754, on 03 November 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Dude I Fed this girl at a party last night, she was sooo average!! It was awesome!

I've been to a lot of parties where, in retrospect, I definitely would have settled for that.

[Kolbfan4]

wussbasket, on 03 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

ESPN's total QBR rating is complete BS.

this is from last year:

You just noticed that now?

[Born_Green]

53 QBR is still junk!  The reason the run game sucks is we have no pass game, the reason we have no pass game is because 1. Vick cant read a deefense, and 2. The oline has no clue.  Its a combination of issues but Vick is def in the equation!

[eephraim]

Think about your own job (if you have one). When you're faced with a work problem and your boss expects you to fix it what do you do?

Do you change something that isn't working as you expected it to and clearly under performing  but also clearly not the main reason for the issue? And then do you replace that under performing component with a new component that may work better, but will LIKELY perform worse?

Or do you say to yourself, let me take the time to properly analyze what the real root problem is, by identifying the constant that has remained all this time that success has not been attainable. After identifying this constant, eliminate it.

I don't know about you guys, but where I work changing things just for the sake of changing them while potentially causing a major F up gets you fired. But changing them with a solid plan and rationale as to why you believe this has been the problem all along (not just the last 2 years) will probably get you a pat on the back.

[hextall4prez]

phillyphan754, on 02 November 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Well Jason Peters is injured...so the massive run plays are out the window this year.

i remember barry sanders having a terrible o-line and breaking off massive runs every game, shady has a style similar to barry's-the difference in why barry could do it and shady wont be able to is barry got the ball 25-30 times a game, shady including screens and swings might get the ball 15 times a game.

we need to commit to shady and use him like the workhorse he can be while he is still young and able.

[DoYouBelieve#20]

Yeah but he would be done like Westbrook then

[eagledrew13]

Regardless of what anybody tells you or what you want to believe...and I fully agree that Vick won't be th QB next year...he still gives the team the best shot o win games this season. As long as the eagles are still mathematically in the hunt for the post season Vick HAS to continue being the QB.

A big deal is made about Vick's 13 turnovers and should he be benched? The reality is he has just 6 in the last 5 games...which actually isn't all that bad. The thing is his two worst games with turnovers were both wins.

The loss against DET wasn't his fault in the least.
The loss against ATL wasn't his fault in the least.

Currently the eagles have the 29th ranked OL in terms of pass protection. Vick has been both hit and hurried more than any QB in the league....some of it his own fault but most of it not. Contrary to popular belief, Vick has actually been decent when he is blitzed (passer rating of 89.7 with 4 TD passes and no picks). The single largest problem with the offense is that the offensive line is allowing more pressure on 3 or 4 man rushes than any other team in the nfl.

Vick may have been the reason that we almost lost in cleveland and against baltimore, but the reality is he is also the only reason that we have ANY offense at all as our run game is pathetic right now without his rushing numbers (our RBs have averaged just 3.8 ypc and it's less than 3.7 ypc if you add WRs stats to the run game). With a player of McCoy's caliber, it's clear even further that the biggest problem at least in terms of execution of plays is the OL and not who is handling the ball behind them(Mccoy OR Vick).

If he was protected like the top tier QBs tend to be, Vick would have double the TD passes right now. This season Vick has has 15 throw aways(2nd among QBs), been hit as he threw 6 times(2nd among QBs) and 7 passes knocked down(7th most), along with the 20 sacks(6th most which would be even higher if Vick didn't have the escapability to escape the 15-20 he already has this season...all of these stats are representative equally, if not moreso, as the job that's being done by the OL than it is for the QB himself.

We can take a closer look at the turnovers which is the obvious weakness. Yes Vick was horrible in that category in weeks 1 and 2 but since then?

He has 2 INTs in the last 5 games for a total of 8.

14 other QBs and 16 other teams have had at least as many. In all, there have been 242 INTs thrown this season so 8 picks can be considered SLIGHTLY below average but in reality over the last 5 games, Vick has been far above average in that category..

As far as the fumbles go, Vick has fumbled once per roughly every 7.5 sacks or rushes. This is by far worse than Vick's career average but on par with most NFL QBs' career average in that regard and in fact better than a good share including both drew brees who has fumbled once every 7.3 rushes/sacks and eli manning who has done so once ever 5.8 rushes/sacks. Again, these fumbles go back to the failures of the OL every bit as much as they go back to vick.

[eagledrew13]

Born_Green, on 04 November 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

53 QBR is still junk!  The reason the run game sucks is we have no pass game, the reason we have no pass game is because 1. Vick cant read a deefense, and 2. The oline has no clue.  Its a combination of issues but Vick is def in the equation!

It's actually quite the reverse there. The pass game falters because there is no run game AND no pass protection. Quite frankly if you think otherwise you don't have the basic knowledge of football offenses to even be in the discussion. There's a reason why the must successful passing teams(unless they have a hall of fame level QB and in some cases even if they do) rely on play action to be successful.

Here's simple equation for you:

When Vick is protected and sees no pressure this season: QB rating 103.5
When Vick is blitzed: QB rating 89.7
When Vick is not blitzed: QB rating of 71.5
When Vick is pressured: QB rating of 40.3

The reality is that Vick and this offense has struggled for really no other reason than the OL's inability to pass protect a 3 or 4 man rush. The eagles OL has given up BY FAR the most pressure under that circumstance. Unfortunately that fact has also led Vick into a point where SOMETIMES he feels the pressure when he really can get away.

Everyone on here was complaining in the preseason after Vick took that shot against NE that Vick needs to learn how to throw the ball away. Fact is he's been forced to throw it away more than anyone this season except for one QB and those throw aways and the 6 times he got hit as he threw account for 9 points off his QB rating. So basically if he didn't do what everyone on here was b****ing about him not doing before his passer rating would be an 87.9 rather than the 78.6 it currently is. However, that would also likely mean he would have been sacked 41 times already this season, in addition to the 15 or so he's already escaped. Do that math real quick.

That means that the offense FOR SEVERAL REASONS has had Vick in position to be sacked over 50 times already this season. Had he not been a smart AND mobile QB for the majority of those times, we're looking at a sack rate that would see Vick get sacked over 114 times...10 more times than any team in NFL history. These reasons are a lot OL and a lack of the run game and perhaps even more the play calling and while yes Vick does shoulder some of the blame....the WIDE WIDE majority of it falls on the OL and play calling.

[Lloyd]

eephraim, on 05 November 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

Think about your own job (if you have one). When you're faced with a work problem and your boss expects you to fix it what do you do?

Do you change something that isn't working as you expected it to and clearly under performing  but also clearly not the main reason for the issue? And then do you replace that under performing component with a new component that may work better, but will LIKELY perform worse?

Or do you say to yourself, let me take the time to properly analyze what the real root problem is, by identifying the constant that has remained all this time that success has not been attainable. After identifying this constant, eliminate it.

I don't know about you guys, but where I work changing things just for the sake of changing them while potentially causing a major F up gets you fired. But changing them with a solid plan and rationale as to why you believe this has been the problem all along (not just the last 2 years) will probably get you a pat on the back.

I think you'd agree that keeping Vick in the lineup is likely to get Andy fired anyway. So I can't blame him for doing something (anything) to shake this team out of apathy.

What's the option? Create an offense that turns Mike Vick into an elite passer? I dont think anyone's cracked that code yet.

[Phila.:chip]

Kolbfan4, on 03 November 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

When your QB runs away from a clean pocket that sure doesn't help. It also doesn't help when he doesn't know how to read a defense. He holds the ball a half a second longer than any other QB for a reason.

People say that Vick struggles to read defenses and recognize blitzes, but stats show that he's pretty good against the blitz. Him holding the ball to long has also been debunked. Vick has to deal with one dimensional receivers, and coaches who deal draw up one dimensional game plan that ignore the best player on the team. Vick's turnovers have only costs us the Arizona game. The oline sucks, the coaching sucks, and the defense sucks.

[Solomon]

I wish I could make up my own metrics and stats....

[SirReal]

Lloyd, on 03 November 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Why do you have such a boner for "average"?

Ah, yet another "All or nothing" post. Only an idiot would think that saying someone is "average" is an approbation, or that "Average" is something to aspire to. He was using the term "Average" to counter the claim that he sucks. Believe it or not, there are a lot of gradiations between "Sucks" and "Superstar".

[Lloyd]

Phila.:chip, on 05 November 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

People say that Vick struggles to read defenses and recognize blitzes, but stats show that he's pretty good against the blitz. Him holding the ball to long has also been debunked. Vick has to deal with one dimensional receivers, and coaches who deal draw up one dimensional game plan that ignore the best player on the team. Vick's turnovers have only costs us the Arizona game. The oline sucks, the coaching sucks, and the defense sucks.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me how Vick has earned such blind faith.  At least with McNabb you had a history of playoff wins and low turnovers.  With Vick, you have people blaming everything AROUND him even though he's been mediocre when it comes to wins/losses throughout his career.

SirReal, on 05 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Ah, yet another "All or nothing" post. Only an idiot would think that saying someone is "average" is an approbation, or that "Average" is something to aspire to. He was using the term "Average" to counter the claim that he sucks. Believe it or not, there are a lot of gradiations between "Sucks" and "Superstar".

Great.

32 years old. Average. And still struggles to complete more than 50% of his passes.

That's the kind of average I want to keep around!

[downsoufeagleluva]

You guys dont read your own posts.  You all didnt read the stats that show  Vicks record when the running game IS working.

Vex, on 02 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Why do the Vick defenders all act like the people saying Vick needs benched is he's the only problem? He's clearly not, but you're about as smart as the average rock if you think Vick hasn't been a problem.

[Bear Grylls]

downsoufeagleluva, on 05 November 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

You guys dont read your own posts.  You all didnt read the stats that show  Vicks record when the running game IS working.

Hey buddy.  Why don't you do me a favor....rank the starting QBs in the NFC East.  Who do you think is best and who do you think is worst?  Where does Vick fall on that list?

[eagledrew13]

Bear Grylls, on 05 November 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Hey buddy.  Why don't you do me a favor....rank the starting QBs in the NFC East.  Who do you think is best and who do you think is worst?  Where does Vick fall on that list?

I'm guessing you have him as last, even though Manning has routinely proven to be (at least in the regular season)  A FAR WORSE QB and Romo continues to prove that he's certainly no better either.

[Bear Grylls]

eagledrew13, on 05 November 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

I'm guessing you have him as last, even though Manning has routinely proven to be (at least in the regular season)  A FAR WORSE QB and Romo continues to prove that he's certainly no better either.

Well only if you're looking at stats or wins and losses.   If you're judging on hope and cool highlight plays, then Vick is #1!!!

[downsoufeagleluva]

1. Manning
2. Vick
3. Romo
4. RGIII

RGIII and Romo are tied for 3rd because of Romo's turnover issues.

Vick has engineered 5 late game TD drives in spite of the atrocious play calling...unfortunately only 3 of them were winners.  But you guys want to blame him for that also.

Bear Grylls, on 05 November 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Hey buddy.  Why don't you do me a favor....rank the starting QBs in the NFC East.  Who do you think is best and who do you think is worst?  Where does Vick fall on that list?

[SirReal]

Lloyd, on 05 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

I'm still waiting for someone to show me how Vick has earned such blind faith.  At least with McNabb you had a history of playoff wins and low turnovers.  With Vick, you have people blaming everything AROUND him even though he's been mediocre when it comes to wins/losses throughout his career.



Great.

32 years old. Average. And still struggles to complete more than 50% of his passes.

That's the kind of average I want to keep around!

Again, not an approbation. The point is not "Keep him", the point is "He doesn't suck".

You really ought to respond to what posters are actually saying, instead of what you extrapolate.

[Vex]

I'm going to say this slowly and carefully for you to understand: Vick sucks. All you have to do is watch a game to realize this. Can't wait until all his fans are gone with him next year.

[Lloyd]

SirReal, on 05 November 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Again, not an approbation. The point is not "Keep him", the point is "He doesn't suck".

You really ought to respond to what posters are actually saying, instead of what you extrapolate.

Is he the worst QB of all time? No.  But is that the argument?  Is that even a discussion worth having?  People marching down Broad Street chanting, "He's not that bad. He's not that bad."

Yes, there is a wide gap between "sucks" and "hall of famer".  Yes the word "sucks" is too strong if you TRULY mean it. But obviously, on an internet message board, I'd imagine that it's just hyperbole being used to make an argument and not a true statistical claim. It's a sports discussion.

He's not "All time history of the NFL" bad  he's just "bad for us" bad.  Which in reality is merely "average" but for the sake of discussion, yeah, I'm gonna throw around the word "bad" or "sucks". God forgive me.