25 replies to this topic

[patpikunas]

Curious if you read Phil Sheridan's article with his summation of where things went wrong for Reid?

Seems to me Sheridan might be reading the "Ask Dave" forum because a lot of what he describes has been talked about around here for the last 4-5 years....

Any thoughts on this Dave?



http://www.philly.co...Andy_Reid_.html

[mjkvol]

Here's the part that hits home the most - I don't know how many times I said this here since 2007.       He had a clear and definite plan coming in, but after 2004 the wheels started coming off the track, and he was never able to get them back on again.       All the while he was enabled by a passive owner.

"When the slide started for his Eagles, Reid was unable to extend or reproduce the winning culture he had created in 1999. He'd reached the last page of his binder and had to start improvising. Unfortunately, he also strayed from the very principles that had worked the first time around, and no one in the organization had the will or the savvy to stop him."

[patpikunas]

Thats exactly why I was jokingly speculating as to whether or not Sheridan spends some time on this forum.

It has been said many times around here, maybe not as eloquently as a professional sports writer, but certainly discussed how things definitely changed with this franchise's approach since the Superbowl appearance.

A lot of it is clearly the arrognace of Reid, but a lot of it was that he had no go to plan, once he got them to the Superbowl, to get them over the hump.

[mjkvol]

Absolutely, pat.

Shame it had to come to this.     I'd have a completely different view of Reid had he been gone after 2007 - it would have been all about the 2000-2004 run.      

Now?      I have no feeling whatsoever for him, and just want him completely out of the organization.      The best thing that can happen is for him to take a job elsewhere next season.

[f_dallas]

patpikunas, on 25 November 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

Thats exactly why I was jokingly speculating as to whether or not Sheridan spends some time on this forum.

It has been said many times around here, maybe not as eloquently as a professional sports writer, but certainly discussed how things definitely changed with this franchise's approach since the Superbowl appearance.

A lot of it is clearly the arrognace of Reid, but a lot of it was that he had no go to plan, once he got them to the Superbowl, to get them over the hump.

It is, but that arrogance is franchise-wide.  This franchise thinks it's arrived.  They think they are elite...from the owner down to the players.  Not to pick on Dave, but did you catch that line in his article a couple days ago?

Quote

I tell you this, though: The Eagles are going to turn this around and they are going to rule the NFC East once again. Whether that cycle starts on Monday night, or the following Sunday at Dallas or in 2013, I don't know. The great NFL franchises emerge from their down periods very quickly. That's the challenge ahead for the entire Eagles organization.

In fairness, he might be saying the Eagles can become a great franchise by emerging from this down period quickly, but I read that as saying the Eagles have "ruled the NFC East" and are a "great franchise", which is baffling.  They had a very, very, very brief run as "Kings of the East" and it effectively ended 8 years ago.  As far as franchises go, they are middle of the road recently and toward the bottom of the barrel historically.

There just doesn't appear to be a lot of humility or an accurate perception of who they are and what they've accomplished.  It just seems that instead of acting like the hungry upstarts they are as a franchise, they behave as if they've already made it and simply need to reclaim their throne.  It's bizarre.

[patpikunas]

f_dallas, on 25 November 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

It is, but that arrogance is franchise-wide.  This franchise thinks it's arrived.  They think they are elite...from the owner down to the players.  Not to pick on Dave, but did you catch that line in his article a couple days ago?



In fairness, he might be saying the Eagles can become a great franchise by emerging from this down period quickly, but I read that as saying the Eagles have "ruled the NFC East" and are a "great franchise", which is baffling.  They had a very, very, very brief run as "Kings of the East" and it effectively ended 8 years ago.  As far as franchises go, they are middle of the road recently and toward the bottom of the barrel historically.

There just doesn't seem to be a lot of humility or an accurate perception of who they are and what they've accomplished.  It just seems that instead of acting like the hungry upstarts they are as a franchise, they behave as if they've already made it and simply need to reclaim their throne.  It's bizarre.

Could not agree more..... the smugness-arrogance emanates throughout the entire Organization.

Lurie-Banner-Reid-Roseman-PR Dept.... its unbelievable.

A serious dose of humility is on the way. Monday night could be very embarassing with an disgusted fan base on National TV. Should be very interesting.

[mjkvol]

f_dallas, on 25 November 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

In fairness, he might be saying the Eagles can become a great franchise by emerging from this down period quickly, but I read that as saying the Eagles have "ruled the NFC East" and are a "great franchise", which is baffling.  

We all know that isn't at all what he was saying.     It really is astounding to see the unearned smugness that permeates this entire organization - Spadaro included.

[dave moss]

patpikunas, on 25 November 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Lurie-Banner-Reid-Roseman-PR Dept.... its unbelievable.

banner now works for the browns along with heckert, shurmur, childress, jauron, ray rhodes, tim hauck, etc.

btw, philly west is 3-8 this season and 6 games out of first place

[Dweedlebug]

This is the line from the article that said it all for me:

  In every case, the easier, more obvious choice would have worked better than Reid's attempts to outsmart everyone.

[CT Eagle]

Dweedlebug, on 26 November 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

This is the line from the article that said it all for me:

  In every case, the easier, more obvious choice would have worked better than Reid's attempts to outsmart everyone.

  Just line up and whoop the dude in front of you.  There was a time that could have worked for this team.  Now the lack of toughness and lack of any winning culture makes it impossible.

[Ipspots]

Sad but true. Reid has fell on his own sword by his own devices.

Even this season could have been better, had they just changed their play calling and coaching styles a bit. This season itself is a microcosim of just how arrogant this franchise is. Why didn't we come out with a more balanaced play calling attack with all the iunjuries to the o line and bad QB decision making?

Why didn't we actually hire a good DC after the last three years of ineptness?

Just soo many bad decisions, and they compound. After Sean McDermott we go with Juan....  and so on....

[mjkvol]

Ipspots, on 26 November 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Sad but true. Reid has fell on his own sword by his own devices.

Even this season could have been better, had they just changed their play calling and coaching styles a bit. This season itself is a microcosim of just how arrogant this franchise is. Why didn't we come out with a more balanaced play calling attack with all the iunjuries to the o line and bad QB decision making?

Why didn't we actually hire a good DC after the last three years of ineptness?

Just soo many bad decisions, and they compound. After Sean McDermott we go with Juan....  and so on....

You answered your own questions, as well as providing the reason this season could absolutely not have been any different.

The arrogance you mention is exactly the reason why this coach would never change his overall philosophy, coaching style, play calling, hiring philosophy, or any other damn thing.

He hadn't in a decade and a half shown the slightest inclination to change and adjust, and for the life of me I will never understand why so many kept believing that he might, as each season passed.

It took a long while, but it's at least good to see that the fan base has finally woken up from the bizarre acceptance of mediocrity. That might be the one thing to force Lurie's hand.

[Rodney_Zero]

1. Drafting Kolb was the starting point IMO, Kind of like when Dan Reeves drafted Tommy Maddox when he still had Elway in Denver. Mcnabb was still in his prime and there was other positions to address in the draft.

2. Drafting on defense,  Laws, McCoy, Abiamri, Bunkley, Bryan Smith, Matt Ware

3. Bringing in Def assistants like Segrest, and Pete Jenkins instead of looking around the NFL for guys who where better candidates.

4. Never finding a replacement for Emmons & Dawkins, not easy, but there are SSLB's in college who have the size and skillset to play the position, instead of throwing WSLB's over there. Dawkins, he's like Palamula and Reed, guys like that ared to replace, but you can find quality players if you look for them.

5. Cemistry, team has'nt had this in awhile

[f_dallas]

Ipspots, on 26 November 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Sad but true. Reid has fell on his own sword by his own devices.

Even this season could have been better, had they just changed their play calling and coaching styles a bit. This season itself is a microcosim of just how arrogant this franchise is. Why didn't we come out with a more balanaced play calling attack with all the iunjuries to the o line and bad QB decision making?

Why didn't we actually hire a good DC after the last three years of ineptness?

Just soo many bad decisions, and they compound. After Sean McDermott we go with Juan....  and so on....

The defense was (and is) a debacle of the highest order.  Reid made a great, great decision in hiring Jim Johnson, but the blunders since have been inexcusable and a more pronounced symptom of the problems they've faced for years.

When he hired Juan, he truly went off the deep end.  Just ignore the fact that it's the Eagles for a second and really think about it...an offensive-minded head coach hires a defensive line coach who runs a highly specific, unique scheme with the front four.  The scheme is essentially experimental and dictates how the rest of the defense must be run and schemed.  He then fills in the rest of the staff with defensive coaches of his own choosing.  Finally, he hires his own offensive line coach (with no defensive experience to speak of) to design/execute a scheme dictated by the defensive line coach's vision and manage the entire defensive staff Reid assembled.  Next, in even stranger twist, Reid follows that up by interviewing new defensive assistants the following season and replacing members of the staff without even including the defensive coordinator (Castillo) in the interview process.

I'm not saying Castillo would have been successful in another situation, but Reid had obviously lost it at that point and we can only assume the organizational structure around him was so weak that he no longer had any oversight or boundaries in place.  I don't say this to attack any individual, but only a dysfunctional, delusional organizational culture can allow that kind of decision-making to take place.

[CT Eagle]

Rodney_Zero, on 26 November 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

2. Drafting on defense,  Laws, McCoy, Abiamri, Bunkley, Bryan Smith, Matt Ware

Not to mention:
Jaiquawn Jarrett, Casey Matthews, Macho Harris, Te'o, Gocong, Demps, Jerome McDougle, and Quinton Carver

[Rodney_Zero]

CT Eagle, on 26 November 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Not to mention:
Jaiquawn Jarrett, Casey Matthews, Macho Harris, Te'o, Gocong , Demps, Jerome McDougle, and Quinton Carver

Gocong should have been at DE where he was pretty good in college, too stiff and big for SSLB

Mcdougle IIRC was the highest rated DE in that draft class, TBO, that draft class for DE's was weak though

Caver was a physical speciman, too lazy & stupid to be a football player though

[CT Eagle]

Rodney_Zero, on 26 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Gocong should have been at DE where he was pretty good in college, too stiff and big for SSLB

Mcdougle IIRC was the highest rated DE in that draft class, TBO, that draft class for DE's was weak though

Caver was a physical speciman, too lazy & stupid to be a football player though

Gocong was a total reach especially when you consider that they tried to put a square peg in a round hole.  He just didn't fit the system. Agree with you on McDougle.  Bunkley was clearly the best DT on the board after Ngata who went like 5 picks ahead to the Ravens.

The bottom line is that aside from this year which looks good but the jury is still out, the ONLY defensive draft pick that seems justified is Cole.  Am I forgetting anyone ?  Patterson is a servicable DT but for a late first round pick he hardly has distinguished himself.  Stu Bradley had a good 8 games one year I guess ???
It is really pathetic..

[Rodney_Zero]

CT Eagle, on 26 November 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

Gocong was a total reach especially when you consider that they tried to put a square peg in a round hole.  He just didn't fit the system. Agree with you on McDougle.  Bunkley was clearly the best DT on the board after Ngata who went like 5 picks ahead to the Ravens.

The bottom line is that aside from this year which looks good but the jury is still out, the ONLY defensive draft pick that seems justified is Cole.  Am I forgetting anyone ?  Patterson is a servicable DT but for a late first round pick he hardly has distinguished himself.  Stu Bradley had a good 8 games one year I guess ???
It is really pathetic..

I am old enough to have seen  that FSU DL do not produce in the NFL or fade real quick like Simon (Dockett is the only one), that are first rd picks, kind of like USC QB's. As for drafting on defense, Patterson is pretty good, and he was the 31st player so where we got him and what he's done for us is worthy. Sheppard , Lewis and Brown did well too, funny thing is Brown was pretty good (run and coverage), then Reids sends him packing becasue he did'nt want to pay him, so we bring namdi and DRC, one who got his payday and another who will want his payday. As for Bradley, could've used him last year @ MLB, this year @ SSLB and put Kendricks @ WSLB, I know this makes sense, Reid should know this

Like I asked before, how many games has he played for FSU?, Why?, FSU has a history of overhyped/overated DE's and DT's

Jamal Reynolds 1st rd pick- Bust
Everett Brown 2nd rd pick - Bust
Corey Simon 1st rd pick- Great early, faded real quick
Andre Wadsworth 1st rd pick- Injured and out of the NFL real quick
Brodrick Bunkely 1st rd pick- one year wonder at FSU, great pass rusher too, gets in the NFL and does'nt do much, and on his 3rd team
Alphonso Carreker 1st rd pick- had one year he had 9 sacks, the others where average for a DE taken 12 th overall
Alonzo Jackson 2nd rd pick- Steelers tried to make a OLB, did'nt work, other teams put him back at DE (Eagles IIRC?) , did'nt work

Travis Johnson who was the 16th overall pick back in 2005 and he was constantly hurtAs for FSU DL

[Rome]

This is all Lurie's fault.  14 years of anyone is too long even if he did win a lot in the beginning.

Fire Andy. That's it.  That's the list.

[patpikunas]

f_dallas, on 26 November 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

The defense was (and is) a debacle of the highest order.  Reid made a great, great decision in hiring Jim Johnson, but the blunders since have been inexcusable and a more pronounced symptom of the problems they've faced for years.

When he hired Juan, he truly went off the deep end.  Just ignore the fact that it's the Eagles for a second and really think about it...an offensive-minded head coach hires a defensive line coach who runs a highly specific, unique scheme with the front four.  The scheme is essentially experimental and dictates how the rest of the defense must be run and schemed.  He then fills in the rest of the staff with defensive coaches of his own choosing.  Finally, he hires his own offensive line coach (with no defensive experience to speak of) to design/execute a scheme dictated by the defensive line coach's vision and manage the entire defensive staff Reid assembled.  Next, in even stranger twist, Reid follows that up by interviewing new defensive assistants the following season and replacing members of the staff without even including the defensive coordinator (Castillo) in the interview process.

I'm not saying Castillo would have been successful in another situation, but Reid had obviously lost it at that point and we can only assume the organizational structure around him was so weak that he no longer had any oversight or boundaries in place.  I don't say this to attack any individual, but only a dysfunctional, delusional organizational culture can allow that kind of decision-making to take place.

Perfectly summed up

[mjkvol]

f_dallas, on 26 November 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

When he hired Juan, he truly went off the deep end.  Just ignore the fact that it's the Eagles for a second and really think about it...an offensive-minded head coach hires a defensive line coach who runs a highly specific, unique scheme with the front four.  The scheme is essentially experimental and dictates how the rest of the defense must be run and schemed.  He then fills in the rest of the staff with defensive coaches of his own choosing.  Finally, he hires his own offensive line coach (with no defensive experience to speak of) to design/execute a scheme dictated by the defensive line coach's vision and manage the entire defensive staff Reid assembled.  Next, in even stranger twist, Reid follows that up by interviewing new defensive assistants the following season and replacing members of the staff without even including the defensive coordinator (Castillo) in the interview process.

It's for exactly this kind of reason that it is astounding that the fan base has taken this long to wake up and demand a change.

A few years late, and not a moment too soon.

[PoconoDon]

Andy Reid, unlike Bill Walsh, cannot ever have a coach (other than JJ), or anything else for that matter, around him who is better at something than he is. His ego would never allow it, even if he is bad at something, the specialized assistant must be worse. Everything he does, every move he makes, is always a downgrade....I'm glad it's over soon.

[dave moss]

I don't believe Andy deserves the right to finish the season since he should have been fired after last year.  this is just piling on

[mjkvol]

Rodney_Zero, on 26 November 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Gocong should have been at DE where he was pretty good in college, too stiff and big for SSLB

Always thought of the Gocong pick as one of the classic 'square peg / round hole' moves of this regime.       Here's a kid who was a sack machine in college - he did nothing but rush the passer.     So what do we do with him here, in the Twilight Zone?      That's right, we have him covering tight ends!!!  

Another all-timer was Ryan Moats, an I-formation back who did nothing but carry the rock in college - and was dumb as a rock, to boot.      Here?      Right!       We'll put him in a complex system where he is pass blocking and catching balls out of the backfield!  

What made that pick even worse was that Marion Barber, a back who actually did the things this 'system' called for, was sitting there.

Some of us pointed out the inanity of this stuff at the time, but true believers preferred to simply blame the player for being something he could never be, which became a rich tradition of the Reid era.

Ah, the memories...............

[CountBlah]

Dweedlebug, on 26 November 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

This is the line from the article that said it all for me:

  In every case, the easier, more obvious choice would have worked better than Reid's attempts to outsmart everyone.

We've been saying that same thing, nearly word for word, for the better part of a decade now.   Dave's fought us over this at every turn,  but it's proven to be true every time.

[Highboy]

Fdallas I think has it right the most, the arrogance is franchise wide. That is exactly why that while I want a new coach, the owner might be the biggest problem and he's not going anywhere. "Gold standard" remember? That isn't me just hanging on to one random quote, he truly believes that.