30 replies to this topic

[Boss Hawg]

http://www.phillymag...own-nick-foles/

Quote

“The Eagles transitioned to an offense where they run the ball out of running formations,” he said. “It helped Foles because it dictates defensive fronts and coverages and they become a little more predictable. Most sophisticated blitzes come from sub-packages. If you are throwing out of base personnel, defenses will be in base personnel, and the large majority of NFL defenses do much less in terms of pressures and blitzing from base personnel than they do from their sub packages.”

Marty Mornhinweg conceded on Thursday that he changed things up to protect the rookie quarterback. It stands to reason that Michael Vick would have benefited from a similar approach.

This isn't the first time the offense changed it's playcalling when it was too late. If they did this with Vick, maybe things would have been different.

This is one of the reasons why I don't want MM anymore either. He's one big F up.

[Vex]

MM/AR/Vick can all go away. Had enough of all of them.

[vikas83]

Andy always has a different offense for the backup QB. The 2006 offense that Garcia ran was balanced. McNabb comes back in 2007 and its bombs away. The only time he quasi-ran the balanced attack with McNabb was the run to the NFCCG in 2008, but then bombs away in the Cardinals game.

[Krukslonelyball]

Nothing could have helped VIcks terribleness.

[Vex]

Krukslonelyball, on 07 December 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

Nothing could have helped VIcks terribleness.

All he needs to put it all together is a second full off season. The first one was just practice.

[EFNO]

Same story over and over - AR and his staff are stubborn and refuse to adjust.  And then they are adjusted to and again, are too stubborn and refuse to adjust....  A vicious cycle.

[time2rock]

Funny how most fans could see this and have been calling for this for a LONG time.  But no, they are too arrogant/stubborn to even TRY to open their eyes and see the benefit of making this type of adjustment from their normal scheme when the QB is crapping the bed and the OL is made up of 80% reserves who were struggling mightily.  They should just keep their mouths shut at this point, when it is obviously way too late to make any difference - it just makes them look like even bigger morons and fires up the fan base.

F Marty - I can't wait to see that POS gone.

[vic92353]

Boss Hawg, on 07 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

http://www.phillymag...own-nick-foles/



This isn't the first time the offense changed it's playcalling when it was too late. If they did this with Vick, maybe things would have been different.

This is one of the reasons why I don't want MM anymore either. He's one big F up.

I see another hate vick Thread starting.  I think this is 103 now.  

[eephraim]

Boss Hawg, on 07 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

http://www.phillymag...own-nick-foles/



This isn't the first time the offense changed it's playcalling when it was too late. If they did this with Vick, maybe things would have been different.

This is one of the reasons why I don't want MM anymore either. He's one big F up.

It's so simple that MM makes it complex. If it isn't working why not change it up...you know...see what happens?

But noooo they continue to force their BS pass happy offense on a team that can clearly kill teams running the ball.

[FanSinceWayBack]

vic92353, on 07 December 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

I see another hate vick Thread starting.  I think this is 103 now.  

Lets be real here. Yes better play calling would benefit Vick, but at the same time that doesnt = us being relevant. 5-11, 6-10, and 7-9 arent exactly what Im wanting as a fan...

[immrbaldwin]

This makes me so angry, I cant really put it into words. Yet the media will still rave about how great a coach he is. Do this 2 months ago and you keep your job, Andy.

[TColeFan]

Boss Hawg, on 07 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

http://www.phillymag...own-nick-foles/



This isn't the first time the offense changed it's playcalling when it was too late. If they did this with Vick, maybe things would have been different.

This is one of the reasons why I don't want MM anymore either. He's one big F up.

Can you please explain to me why MM should go to a base offense for a 10 yr Vet that's been in the system for 4 years?

Does Vick need a base offense or do you think he can handle running a more complex offense?

[judunno]

TColeFan, on 07 December 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Can you please explain to me why MM should go to a base offense for a 10 yr Vet that's been in the system for 4 years?

Does Vick need a base offense or do you think he can handle running a more complex offense?

Here's an explanation.  How about because there are multiple starters missing from the OL and the replacements can't handle all the complex ish.  It's not rocket science.  Protect your QB and he'll have more success than not.  Run your beast running backs and those 3rd and longs suddenly become manageable 3rd and shorts.  This coaching staff's inability to protect the quarterback by simplifying things for the OL, Running Backs, and QBs has cost them big.  Hence why they will all be fired at the end of the year.  So to answer your question YES... Vick, Foles, Edwards..should all go to a basic attack when the OL is depleted.  I would even say this for Brady, Manning, Brees, etc.  If the OL is Fd... you don't get cute or your QB will be in the hospital.

[Audit2]

TColeFan, on 07 December 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Can you please explain to me why MM should go to a base offense for a 10 yr Vet that's been in the system for 4 years?

Does Vick need a base offense or do you think he can handle running a more complex offense?

Because you have a weak OL and everyone know that MM and Andy love the deep ball.  Why have great RBs if you're not going to use them?

[TColeFan]

judunno, on 07 December 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

Here's an explanation.  How about because there are multiple starters missing from the OL and the replacements can't handle all the complex ish.  It's not rocket science.  Protect your QB and he'll have more success than not. Run your beast running backs and those 3rd and longs suddenly become manageable 3rd and shorts.  This coaching staff's inability to protect the quarterback by simplifying things for the OL, Running Backs, and QBs has cost them big.  Hence why they will all be fired at the end of the year.  So to answer your question YES... Vick, Foles, Edwards..should all go to a basic attack when the OL is depleted.  I would even say this for Brady, Manning, Brees, etc.  If the OL is Fd... you don't get cute or your QB will be in the hospital.

1. We weren't missing multiple starters on the OL in the beginning of the season when Vick was turning the ball over.
2. With Vick behind center, we averaged 1 carry less per game than we run now with Foles behind center.

I get running a Rookie offense now with rookies all over the place... But that wasn't the case early in the season when Vick was prone to turnovers.

The gist of what I take out of this is that Vick is only smart enough to run a Rookie Offense... and we should have dumbed everything down for him so that he can stay the starter.

[joegus]

For YEARS I have been saying this same thing.
Andy and Marty are football drama Queens!

Now you fools start believing. ( Turns away shaking his head )

[BlackPooL]

The fact that AR/MM only change game plans for rookie or back up QBs just pisses me right off.

I'm finally on board with saying AR (and MM) are just plain arrogant.

[TColeFan]

BlackPooL, on 07 December 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

The fact that AR/MM only change game plans for rookie or back up QBs just pisses me right off.

I'm finally on board with saying AR (and MM) are just plain arrogant.

So let me try to figure this out in order to make sense out of it...

Veteran QB = Complex offensive scheme
Rookie = Simplified offensive scheme
Mike Vick = needs simplified offensive scheme in order to succeed

Is this what the Vick fans are saying?

Bring our offense down to the QB, instead of getting a QB that can perform up to the offense?

[proveagle]

The article says "base personnel", not "base offense".  You can still run a difficult to defend, and even complex offense, with base personnel. Base personnel does not equal dumbed down offense.  You can throw the ball very effectively out of running formations.

MM/Reid constantly try to outhink everyone with a bunch of exotic/cute BS.  I would much rather see a team master 3-5 formations and then have a ton of plays that work of those formations.  Everyone in the league knows the Eagles run a high % of the time when they go single back in the shotgun.

I also hate how Reid runs substitutions.  The notion you take hot players off the field because you are a slave to your personnel packages is ridiculous.

[rizza]

Vex, on 07 December 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

MM/AR/Vick can all go away. Had enough of all of them.

Bring back Rich Kotite!

[BlackPooL]

TColeFan, on 07 December 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

So let me try to figure this out in order to make sense out of it...

Veteran QB = Complex offensive scheme
Rookie = Simplified offensive scheme
Mike Vick = needs simplified offensive scheme in order to succeed

Is this what the Vick fans are saying?

Bring our offense down to the QB, instead of getting a QB that can perform up to the offense?

I'm not a Vick fan one way or the other, so don't group me as one. I'm all for moving on with a new QB. I'm enjoying the sense of something new next year.

What makes me mad is force feeding a scheme that doesn't work for god knows how many weeks, then being smart enough to adjust after a week with a different QB. Only now it's WAY too late.

If this scheme works better, how is it about "bringing the offense down"? To me it's simply about playing a better, more balanced, less predictable offense.

[Worlds Away]

TColeFan, on 07 December 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

1. We weren't missing multiple starters on the OL in the beginning of the season when Vick was turning the ball over.
2. With Vick behind center, we averaged 1 carry less per game than we run now with Foles behind center.

I get running a Rookie offense now with rookies all over the place... But that wasn't the case early in the season when Vick was prone to turnovers.

The gist of what I take out of this is that Vick is only smart enough to run a Rookie Offense... and we should have dumbed everything down for him so that he can stay the starter.

Give it a rest.

[judunno]

TColeFan, on 07 December 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

1. We weren't missing multiple starters on the OL in the beginning of the season when Vick was turning the ball over.
2. With Vick behind center, we averaged 1 carry less per game than we run now with Foles behind center.

I get running a Rookie offense now with rookies all over the place... But that wasn't the case early in the season when Vick was prone to turnovers.

The gist of what I take out of this is that Vick is only smart enough to run a Rookie Offense... and we should have dumbed everything down for him so that he can stay the starter.

the ol was terrible at the beginning of the year all the way through now. As for the carries.. its when and who runs.... The avg carries tht u speak of include vicks scrambles.. Only a moron would continue to dial up a sophisticated offense when thy can't protect.

[PoconoDon]

The clock tinkerer is just doing what he does....tinker.

Soon he will be gone.

[TColeFan]

judunno, on 08 December 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

the ol was terrible at the beginning of the year all the way through now. As for the carries.. its when and who runs.... The avg carries tht u speak of include vicks scrambles.. Only a moron would continue to dial up a sophisticated offense when thy can't protect.

Actually they don't, I went back and checked all the numbers and accounted for Vick... 22.11/per game (just RBs and WRs) to 23.75/per game.

I removed all of Vick's carries because it's impossible to know if it was a designed run or a break down.

The point is that the AR/MM is still passing/running at a 60/40 clip.  The same as they've always done.

Saying that they are running more is BS... they are running more effectively, which actually lends itself more to the notion on why we've all been begging for a bigger back.

The O-Line wasn't the problem the first 4 weeks of the season... Vick was.  (Shady had 384 yds on the ground in the first 4 games and averaged 20.25 carries a game)

Foles is not a savior... he's just the glaring poster child for everything thing that Vick does wrong.

Foles gets rid of the ball, Vick doesn't... which results in too many sacks, scrambles which result in FUMs, and higher risk of injury.

And say what you will about Foles "almost" being picked off... VIck was picked off a ridiculous number of times.

[Eagle_69]

One of the final nails in the Andy Reid coffin is only now when we have a rookie QB and a rookie RB, with our top WR out and an OL barely worth pissing on, does he decide to commit to a run game

Too little, too late. I wonder how this season might have gone had we protected Vick from defenses, our line and himself but a more committed approach to the run game behind LeSean McCoy and Bryce Brown. Play off heavy play action and give Vick easy reads, quick releases to negate the OL issues.

[Eagle_69]

TColeFan, on 09 December 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

And say what you will about Foles "almost" being picked off.

Ive just had a look at NFL.com... cant find "Almost INT" under the defensive stats.

[Innocence096]

Eagle_69, on 09 December 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

Ive just had a look at NFL.com... cant find "Almost INT" under the defensive stats.

pass deflection?

[Eagle_69]

Innocence096, on 09 December 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

pass deflection?

If you want to call every pass deflection an "almost INT" so be it... for me you either throw a pick, or you dont.
I guess my point is we can all obsess over bad throws from a rookie 3rd round QB but Foles does a better job of not throwing picks than Vick. Some of that's luck and but most of it is decision making and play calling. Ried isnt putting Foles in a position to make many bad decisions, a position he should have been putting his turn over and injury prone QB Vick in.

[TColeFan]

Eagle_69, on 09 December 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

If you want to call every pass deflection an "almost INT" so be it... for me you either throw a pick, or you dont.
I guess my point is we can all obsess over bad throws from a rookie 3rd round QB but Foles does a better job of not throwing picks than Vick. Some of that's luck and but most of it is decision making and play calling. Ried isnt putting Foles in a position to make many bad decisions, a position he should have been putting his turn over and injury prone QB Vick in.

I can't stand this mentality... It's pathetic that in order for us to succeed with a 10 yr Vet who's been in our system for 4 years, we have to handle him with Kid gloves.

Treat Vick like a rookie so he can succeed... Let's not take any shots downfield and let's run a ton of checkdowns because our QB is in capable of making decisions to protect himself and the ball.

It's such a cop out... He's a paid professional with a truck load of experience, but let's make sure the most important player on offense doesn't handle the ball too much.