89 replies to this topic

[massinger]

I think that Andy Reid's first mistake was when Reid took over player personnel moves when Tom Modrak was releived of his duties. AR wanted to be like Holmgren and have total control,without any checks and balances. When I heard that Modrak was gone and AR had complete control, I got a sinking feeling in my gut and thought,"Thjis is not good". Sure, Tom Heckert was hired but it was still AR in control. AR's first contract issue was with Trotter and it has been downhill since with a lot of contentious negotiations with Staley, Westbrook, Douglas and lastly Dawkins.  None of those players were replaced the next season with better or equal players. Sure, After Staley left to go to Pittsburgh, a void was left that was filled by D.Levins but then Westbrook and Buckhalter kept taking turns getting hurt.

Second biggest mistake was tghat any player can fit in his system. AR started every season without a complete team and tried to put players in positions they weren't able to play in.

[Iron_Eagle_04]

Eagles3785, on 20 December 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

I hate conspiracy theorists...

I bet your ancestors thought the world was flat also

It was mostly a hyperbole to make a point about the problems that clown caused our organization.  I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out to be true though.

And I never knew people thinking the world was flat was a conspiracy.  Merely an ancient belief that was debunked with time,  research and exploration.

[Eagles3785]

Iron_Eagle_04, on 20 December 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

It was mostly a hyperbole to make a point about the problems that clown caused our organization.  I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out to be true though.

And I never knew people thinking the world was flat was a conspiracy.  Merely an ancient belief that was debunked with time,  research and exploration.

can't insult you

[The_Talon]

Nivraga, on 19 December 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Andy Reid has a good track record on when it is time to cut ties with a veteran player - But Dawkins should have been resigned - simply because it was Dawkins - he is the kind of player that should never have been allowed to put on another uniform. And I freely admit that at the time I deferred to the judgement of Andy Reid - I was sad but not outraged as I should have been.

while I agree or at least respect just about all of that entire post, this is the part I don't agree with. Andy Reid should not have re-signed Dawkins simply because it was Dawkins.  You can't re-sign a player for who he once was. That would be a mistake.

He should have re-signed Dawkins because we didn't have an adequate replacement for him. Not having a replacement player for him would be reason enough.

[Runtherock]

Nivraga, on 19 December 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Bringing TO in was the problem - aquiring him completely changed the Eagles offensive philosophy - for the worse. The Eagles definately needed better WRs but they didn't need TO. Comparing apples to apples - look at the last 10 regular season games of 2003 and the first 10 regular season games of 2004 - the 03 Offense out produced the 04 Offense in every facet. The difference was in 03 the Eagles played small ball and it made them strong in the redzone. With TO the Eagles immediately became a vertical big play offense - and gradually but surely their success in the redzone waned.

The big play is like crack for Marty Reid. With Nick Foles in behind a shoddy offensive line and DeSean out, Marty Reid have reverted to a more controlled West Coast style offense. But you see them on the sideline sweating from withdraw - they want - they need - to chuck the ball down field.


I wonder looking back how the Eagles would have faired without Owens. They definately would have made a move at WR so I doubt it would have been strictly some combination for FredEx/Pinkston/ Thrash. What hurt the Eagles in 03 was losing Westbrook in the last game of the season and not having him for the playoffs. The Eagles didn't low ball Owens - NO ONE ELSE wanted him except Baltimore who repeatedly stated publicly they would not renegotiate his contract. TO was going to win his arbitration and could have been FA if thats what he wanted - but he knew that the Eagles were offering him the best deal he was going to get so he agreed to go along with the proposed settlement. That piece of ish Rosencrap got in TO's head and convinced him that he could get a better deal and that the fans would be on their side against the "perceived" miserly Eagles - Rosencrap was wrong. In truth if TO and played out his contract he would have made more money in endorsements here than he ever made from football alone. And with someone like TO - if you bend over for him one year you will be bending over EVERY year. It's unfortunate but the Eagles stayed firm on the only path that made sense for them.

I totally agree that drafting DeSean was not a mistake - the mistake, since 2004, is relying too heavily on the Big Play - it reached a point where the Eagles are totally one dimensional - take away the big play from the Eagles and you have an offense that struggles to score 16 points a game.

Andy Reid has a good track record on when it is time to cut ties with a veteran player - But Dawkins should have been resigned - simply because it was Dawkins - he is the kind of player that should never have been allowed to put on another uniform. And I freely admit that at the time I deferred to the judgement of Andy Reid - I was sad but not outraged as I should have been.

I thought the Washburn signing was a great move at the time - like many of us fans I failed to realize that there is a lot of information available inside the NFL that doesn't permeate outside to the fanbase until some controversial event takes place. Whether Andy Reid received bad advise or just didn't do his homework or miscalculated his ability to manage Washburn's undermining tendencies - it is totally clear in retrospect that hiring Washburn was a bad move - no denying that one.

Eagles 2003 offense was better.
Not saying that drafting Barry Gardner wasn't a mistake - bad draft picks happen - but the article is about what mistake ultimate led to Andy Reids demise - No one knew what Trott was - he hadn't shown anything as a rookie to make you think he would definately be the starter at MLB - drafting Gardner was insurance - lousy insurance but insurance none the less. Regardless it was hardly the defining error of the Andy Reid era.

The title of the thread does not reference "the defining error." Barry Gardner was Reid's first big mistake. He was his second pick, ever, and his second pick in that draft. He was a high second round pick, and he was not drafted for insurance. I remember Gardner's draft presser very well. Reid said he was drafted to be the Eagles starting middle linebacker for the next decade. He had no idea what he already had in Trott, and he obviously misjudged Gardner's worth.

[eglz1]

purephillyfan, on 19 December 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

T.O. had a big mouth but the guy was a darn good player and still is.

That's why he's a 'free agent' just like his now-buddy Donovan.

[joespadaro]

Actually signing Torrance Small was Reids first mistake, charles johnson was OK, but Small was downright awful

[Nivraga]

Runtherock, on 20 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

The title of the thread does not reference "the defining error." Barry Gardner was Reid's first big mistake.

The title of thread doesn't nor does the title of the article referenced - but if you actually read the article it is obvious that is what Marcus Hayes is writing about. Bad draft picks and bad FA signings happen - joespadaro posted that Reids first mistake was signing Torrence Small - regardless of what we think of TSmall, he was an improvement to the WR corps that AR inherited.

I think Whitemoose assertion that drafting Freddie Mitchell was the first reall mistake has merit - that did kind of set the franchise back a few years and put Andy in a position that he may felt TO was necessary. But I still don't beleive he was - again the 2003 offense out performed the 2004 offense when completely healthy in both years. We definately needed to upgrade from Pinkston/Thrash/Mitchell - but certainly did not need to compromise team integrity for the talents of TO

Runtherock, on 20 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Barry Gardner was Reid's first big mistake. He was his second pick, ever, and his second pick in that draft. He was a high second round pick, and he was not drafted for insurance. I remember Gardner's draft presser very well. Reid said he was drafted to be the Eagles starting middle linebacker for the next decade. He had no idea what he already had in Trott, and he obviously misjudged Gardner's worth.

Again - bad draft picks happen - the first ever 2nd round pick being a bust maybe the first mistake but I would not characterize it as a BIG mistake. Barry Gardner contributed - we're not talking Jon Harris. As for the presser - no one but Kotite ever drafted a player to be a backup - every single draft pick - even the 7th round picks - are drafted with the intention/hope that the will be the starting whatever for the next decade. Saying that in a presser following a draft is nothing more than coachspeak.

Again - what had Trotter shown in his rookie season to make anyone believe that the Starting MLB was already on the roster? Ray Rhodes didn't know.

[Runtherock]

Nivraga, on 21 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

The title of thread doesn't nor does the title of the article referenced - but if you actually read the article it is obvious that is what Marcus Hayes is writing about. Bad draft picks and bad FA signings happen - joespadaro posted that Reids first mistake was signing Torrence Small - regardless of what we think of TSmall, he was an improvement to the WR corps that AR inherited.

I think Whitemoose assertion that drafting Freddie Mitchell was the first reall mistake has merit - that did kind of set the franchise back a few years and put Andy in a position that he may felt TO was necessary. But I still don't beleive he was - again the 2003 offense out performed the 2004 offense when completely healthy in both years. We definately needed to upgrade from Pinkston/Thrash/Mitchell - but certainly did not need to compromise team integrity for the talents of TO



Again - bad draft picks happen - the first ever 2nd round pick being a bust maybe the first mistake but I would not characterize it as a BIG mistake. Barry Gardner contributed - we're not talking Jon Harris. As for the presser - no one but Kotite ever drafted a player to be a backup - every single draft pick - even the 7th round picks - are drafted with the intention/hope that the will be the starting whatever for the next decade. Saying that in a presser following a draft is nothing more than coachspeak.

Again - what had Trotter shown in his rookie season to make anyone believe that the Starting MLB was already on the roster? Ray Rhodes didn't know.

You're being argumentative man. The title of the thread says what it says, not what YOU WANT it to say. And missing on your first second round pick, a high second round pick, almost a first round pick, is and WAS a big mistake. It was for two reasons, he wasted a pick on a middle linebacker when he already had a future multiple Pro bowler on his roster, and the middle linebacker he drafted was a bum. Major screw-up. It was Reid's job to accurately evaluate the talent on his roster before his first draft. He obviously did not do a very good job of it, nor did he evaluate Gardner accurately. Major mistake---right out of the gate.

[mike030270]

Not putting his foot down on that diva and squashing the beef between McNabb and T.O. was his mistake. T.O. was awesome and just needed a good slap upside the head.

[Nivraga]

Runtherock, on 21 December 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

You're being argumentative man. The title of the thread says what it says, not what YOU WANT it to say. And missing on your first second round pick, a high second round pick, almost a first round pick, is and WAS a big mistake. It was for two reasons, he wasted a pick on a middle linebacker when he already had a future multiple Pro bowler on his roster, and the middle linebacker he drafted was a bum. Major screw-up. It was Reid's job to accurately evaluate the talent on his roster before his first draft. He obviously did not do a very good job of it, nor did he evaluate Gardner accurately. Major mistake---right out of the gate.

I'm being argumentative? yeah ... you're being unreasonable - sorry to confuse you with facts when you've already made up your mind. whatever

[shehateme]

T.O. was awesome man. Shudup

[BillTheButcher]

mike030270, on 21 December 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

Not putting his foot down on that diva and squashing the beef between McNabb and T.O. was his mistake. T.O. was awesome and just needed a good slap upside the head.

so you dont remeber TO being banished to practicing on a filed by himself. the foot was brought down, but that only made TO worse.

[djbigf]

Nivraga, on 21 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

The title of thread doesn't nor does the title of the article referenced - but if you actually read the article it is obvious that is what Marcus Hayes is writing about. Bad draft picks and bad FA signings happen

Again - bad draft picks happen

and they happened again, and again, and again during the past 14 years, which is why the coach is getting fired and the team is going to finish 4-12.

to put the TO situation in perspective, they gave shawn andrews his money instead.  they shoulda just paid TO.

[BillTheButcher]

djbigf, on 22 December 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

and they happened again, and again, and again during the past 14 years, which is why the coach is getting fired and the team is going to finish 4-12.

to put the TO situation in perspective, they gave shawn andrews his money instead.  they shoulda just paid TO.

they did pay TO, TO wanted more a year after signing a brand new contract. whats not to understand about this? who else has signed a new 7 year deal then wants a new one a year later? who?

[djbigf]

BillTheButcher, on 22 December 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

they did pay TO, TO wanted more a year after signing a brand new contract. whats not to understand about this? who else has signed a new 7 year deal then wants a new one a year later? who?

it was another case of joey nickels being too clever by half.  they end-loaded the contract so that if things didn't work out, they could cut ties after 2 years w/o owing any money.  the NFLPA advised TO not to sign the deal, but TO wanted to play here b/c he knew he could help the eagles win.  the eagles were tens of millions under the cap and could have easily given him a bump after the season he had, esp coming back 3 weeks early to play in the super bowl on a broken leg.  once again, the eagles FO demonstrated that they were more interested in proving points than scoring them, and the only title they cared about winning was the salary cap title.  14 years later, how's that worked out for them?  banner's gone, reid's on his way out, and howie the lawyer's hanging onto his job by the thinnest of threads.  the roster is full of overpriced, overrated players and bereft of young talent, esp on the lines.  lurie's at a real crossroads here.

[Hank_TheBody_Fraley]

Reid's first mistake was uttering the phrase, "we're fine there" for whatever position it was clear to any blind man we were clearly not fine at, then not addressing it. It became apparent, as early as 5 years in to anyone who wished to see it, that the man who got the job due to his attention to detail (e.g., 300 pg notebook about kicker, holder, longsnapper relationship) had significant trouble truly attending to all of the details that needed his attention. Reid spent too much time trying to outsmart everyone else and not enough time putting together a roster that made sense. He won a lot of games with smoke and mirrors. I wholeheartedly believe what we are seeing now is the real coach Reid and not this all of sudden change to a bad coach.

[EagleJoe8]

I've said before, both sides handled this all wrong. While I would not have just torn up TO's deal and given him a new contract, I would not have basically kicked him out of the office either. Some egos need to be managed differently than others. At the very least, keep dialog open. Maybe let TO think he's getting some of what he wants. What I would have done, is maybe move some of the backloaded money to the 2nd year, and maybe even guaranteed the deal through the 3rd year which had a $7.5 Million roster bonus due. I remember Rosenhaus on NFLN I think it was saying that they would stay with the deal if the Eagles guaranteed it. Had the team met TO halfway, maybe the whole mess doesn't happen. If that wasn't good enough, then at least they would have tried to make it work.

[bumpy93]

NO, it was not paying him the money he earned IMO

[BillTheButcher]

djbigf, on 22 December 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

it was another case of joey nickels being too clever by half.  they end-loaded the contract so that if things didn't work out, they could cut ties after 2 years w/o owing any money.  the NFLPA advised TO not to sign the deal, but TO wanted to play here b/c he knew he could help the eagles win.  the eagles were tens of millions under the cap and could have easily given him a bump after the season he had, esp coming back 3 weeks early to play in the super bowl on a broken leg.  once again, the eagles FO demonstrated that they were more interested in proving points than scoring them, and the only title they cared about winning was the salary cap title.  14 years later, how's that worked out for them?  banner's gone, reid's on his way out, and howie the lawyer's hanging onto his job by the thinnest of threads.  the roster is full of overpriced, overrated players and bereft of young talent, esp on the lines.  lurie's at a real crossroads here.

TO signed that contract. case... closed. and we have seen time after time TO is a ****er. Im glad we didnt give him any more money. Very glad.

Bereft of young talant? really? cox, curry, graham, hunt, kelce, lesean desean, maclin, kendricks, foles, damaris, bryce, polk, yeah if you say so bro bro

[djbigf]

BillTheButcher, on 22 December 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

TO signed that contract. case... closed. and we have seen time after time TO is a ****er. Im glad we didnt give him any more money. Very glad.

Bereft of young talant? really? cox, curry, graham, hunt, kelce, lesean desean, maclin, kendricks, foles, damaris, bryce, polk,

[BillTheButcher]

djbigf, on 22 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

just the fact you didnt highlight the rest of them proves you were wrong the 1st time when you said there is NO young talent. dumbarse.

[mike030270]

BillTheButcher, on 22 December 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

so you dont remeber TO being banished to practicing on a filed by himself. the foot was brought down, but that only made TO worse.

That's not punishment.

[BillTheButcher]

mike030270, on 22 December 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

That's not punishment.

public embarrassment. and thats not what andy is about at all. thats big time from andy.

[mike030270]

BillTheButcher, on 22 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

public embarrassment. and thats not what andy is about at all. thats big time from andy.

That wasn't public embarrassment imo. More like spotlight for T.O.

[BillTheButcher]

mike030270, on 22 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

That wasn't public embarrassment imo. More like spotlight for T.O.

yup. kinda like, TO thinks everyone is laughing with him when all of philly and the national media was laughing at him. that kind of spotlight. TO is dumb as rocks.

[Boss Hawg]

2005 was a bomb year with McNabb getting hurt and the team losing Pinkston. If those 2 things hadn't happened, I think we would have made the playoffs again and gotten pretty far. Yeah Pinkston wasn't a great receiver, but his presence in stretching the field couldn't be filled by Greg Lewis.

[djbigf]

Boss Hawg, on 22 December 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

2005 was a bomb year with McNabb getting hurt and the team losing Pinkston. If those 2 things hadn't happened, I think we would have made the playoffs again and gotten pretty far. Yeah Pinkston wasn't a great receiver, but his presence in stretching the field couldn't be filled by Greg Lewis.

stfu, wheels.

[Portyansky]

Not saying who was right or wrong, but both parties just kept adding fuel to the fire. If that fool would have never gotten injured, this wouldn't of happened.

[BillySims]

What does Owens have to do with anything in 2006 onward? Did his ghost disrupt all these imaginary, intangible things like "leadership" and "chemistry?"

It's so ridiculous. The Eagles went to the Super Bowl in 2004 and they were 4-3 in 2005 with Owens despite McNabb playing with a sports hernia that would force him to shut down his season 2 weeks later. The Eagles weren't exactly the first defending Super Bowl runner up to miss the playoffs.

What happened to the 2004 Panthers? I'm trying to think of a way to blame Terrell Owens for this.