42 replies to this topic

[f_dallas]

Is Reid seriously going to send him out there in a meaningless game, with a bunch of backups, in a meaningless season?

I know Shady wants to play and I'm sure the doctor cleared him, but doctors made mistakes clearing Westbrook, Jahvid Best, and a host of others in the past.  In a 4 win season, this is stupid, dangerous, and pointless.

[MR-CYN]

I agree, there's no reason for him to be out there with his recent concussion. There's nothing to be gained at all and he has nothing to prove. Of course he wants to play, he gets paid, he's a professional, blah blah blah. My dog would love to run on a freeway too, doesn't mean he's going to get to.

[Highboy]

No ****.

[HarborTheClay]

Come on guys...he's hardly going to get the rock just like when he was active.

[dnabbrules]

HarborTheClay, on 20 December 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Come on guys...he's hardly going to get the rock just like when he was active.

U mean unless they are trailing by 25 points with 1 minute and 40 seconds remaining in the game, he's hardly going to get the rock, amirite?

[Nivraga]

If you are the Cowboys and the Giants how would you feel about the Eagles laying down. Maybe that is a bit of a stretch but not playing your best players when they're healthy is leaning in that direction. I'm sure that's how the league would see it. Benching Shady sends all the wrong messages to the rest of team. Shady may have some contract incentives involving number of starts and playing time.

There is also the TV contracts to think of. Networks wll make the argument that ratings are better when star players play even in a down year for their team. And teams without anything to play for using the final games of the season to evaluate the bottom of their roster is a revenue killer. You see where this is going.

This game does have playoff implications.

I would rather he didn't play either but I understand why he is. And I'm not saying that Reid is playing him for any other reason than he wants to win what is most likely his final game at the Linc as the Eagles HC. But I do believe the league would "encourage" the Eagles to put him on the field regardless.

[mjkvol]

These guys are paid a lot of money to play.      What the hell has happened to the fans of this sport?

I'm sorry, but if he's been cleared to play, then he should play.

[HarborTheClay]

If Foles is the future, he needs to work with Shady. You don't get the same work in practice or training camp that you get in a real game.

And besides, it's not like anything else could possibly go wrong, right?

[patpikunas]

I personally would not play him but I can understand the argument on both sides

[f_dallas]

mjkvol, on 20 December 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

These guys are paid a lot of money to play.   What the hell has happened to the fans of this sport?

I'm sorry, but if he's been cleared to play, then he should play.

This season is toast and watching Shady split carries with Bryce Brown for a couple game isn't saving it.  Westbrook's career was basically ended because he came back from a concussion too quickly and suffered another.  Jahvid Best missed all of 2012 and his career may be over because he came back too quickly and suffered another concussion.  I can't come up with a single good reason to play him in these final two weeks.

It's about the long term here...not the short term.  The tests they have in place for concussions aren't an exact science and I do not think it's worth the risk, given there's no potential reward.

[MR-CYN]

I will laugh my balls off if they go ground Reid and give shady 40 carries. That's so something Reid would do just to say F you one last time to the fans.

[Runtherock]

f_dallas, on 20 December 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

Is Reid seriously going to send him out there in a meaningless game, with a bunch of backups, in a meaningless season?

I know Shady wants to play and I'm sure the doctor cleared him, but doctors made mistakes clearing Westbrook, Jahvid Best, and a host of others in the past.  In a 4 win season, this is stupid, dangerous, and pointless.

Agree 1000%. Best player on the team. Suffers a serious concussion, one that keeps him out several games, a brain injury. Suffered the concussion with 1:40 left in a game that could not be won. And now he's going to play him when the season's over? And if he gets a concussion in these last two games? Its stupid. Its asinine. Its indefensible. Its ignorant. Its soooo Reid.

[VaBeach_Eagle]

Lurie needs to sit in the owners box and not try to tinker.

[mjkvol]

f_dallas, on 20 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

This season is toast and watching Shady split carries with Bryce Brown for a couple game isn't saving it.  Westbrook's career was basically ended because he came back from a concussion too quickly and suffered another.  Jahvid Best missed all of 2012 and his career may be over because he came back too quickly and suffered another concussion.  I can't come up with a single good reason to play him in these final two weeks.

It's about the long term here...not the short term.  The tests they have in place for concussions aren't an exact science and I do not think it's worth the risk, given there's no potential reward.

I'm afraid I'm from the stone age with regard to all this 'player safety' garbage, f.         These are very highly paid athletes, not paid to be played only when it's convenient.       If that's not in step with the touchy-feely way we deal with players today, I apologize.

To me, if it was the 16th game, and we had a specific playoff position locked in, is the only way I could see sitting players.      Otherwise, they should play.

[VaBeach_Eagle]

mjkvol, on 20 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I'm afraid I'm from the stone age with regard to all this 'player safety' garbage, f. These are very highly paid athletes, not paid to be played only when it's convenient.    If that's not in step with the touchy-feely way we deal with players today, I apologize.

To me, if it was the 16th game, and we had a specific playoff position locked in, is the only way I could see sitting players.   Otherwise, they should play.

People need something to cry about though, if he'd been slated as "out" but in fine health, the same people would be demanding that Andy be fired before the game even starts.

[Runtherock]

mjkvol, on 20 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I'm afraid I'm from the stone age with regard to all this 'player safety' garbage, f. These are very highly paid athletes, not paid to be played only when it's convenient.    If that's not in step with the touchy-feely way we deal with players today, I apologize.

To me, if it was the 16th game, and we had a specific playoff position locked in, is the only way I could see sitting players.   Otherwise, they should play.

Its moronic. Its perfectly expected that a multi-million dollar race horse gets sat down to save it, to preserve it. But nooooooo, we can't do that with a multi-million dollar earning human being. Best player on the team. Season OVER! Brain injury! Absolutely indefensible.

[f_dallas]

mjkvol, on 20 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I'm afraid I'm from the stone age with regard to all this 'player safety' garbage, f. These are very highly paid athletes, not paid to be played only when it's convenient.    If that's not in step with the touchy-feely way we deal with players today, I apologize.

To me, if it was the 16th game, and we had a specific playoff position locked in, is the only way I could see sitting players.   Otherwise, they should play.

Concussions are incredibly serious.  It's not just an issue with regard to Shady's long term health (after the game) but acting in the best interest of the Eagles in 2013 and beyond.  This isn't a tweaked hammy followed by an off-season to heal and recuperate.

Coming back too soon increases your risk a of second, more serious concussion dramatically.  What's worse, even doctors essentially have to guess when a person is healthy.  It's an educated guess, but far from an exact science.

If you think these last two games are worth risking him for the entire 2013 season, by all means run him out there.  Since he's a highly paid and valuable member of the team, I'd rather have him 100% recovered and ready to go when the games matter (next year).

[f_dallas]

VaBeach_Eagle, on 20 December 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

People need something to cry about though, if he'd been slated as "out" but in fine health, the same people would be demanding that Andy be fired before the game even starts.

I don't think you understand the issue.  I'm making a pretty logical argument, if you understand the nature of concussions and risk/reward.

[EAGLESinc]

I personally don't think he should play , but on the other hand , Celek is playing and he had his concussion more recently. I know no two concussions are the same and I know Shady is a Pro Bowler , not comparing the 2 there. I would limit his touches that's for sure.

[LacesOut]

When a player is cleared to play, and that player wants to play, the coach will play him.  But with that said, I'd let Shady dress, and then stand on the sidelines next to the coaches for the entire game!  NO rock for you, Mr. Shady!

[f_dallas]

EAGLESinc, on 20 December 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

I personally don't think he should play , but on the other hand , Celek is playing and he had his concussion more recently. I know no two concussions are the same and I know Shady is a Pro Bowler , not comparing the 2 there. I would limit his touches that's for sure.

I've heard the limiting touches argument, but I don't think it makes much sense with this kind of injury, given he's going to get hit every time he takes the hand-off and it only takes one shot.  By limiting his touches, you're just limiting the odds he'll see a big hit.  If you're trying to avoid a big hit, that probably means he isn't ready to come back.

As far as Celek and the types of concussions go, you're absolutely right.  The fact that Shady had to sit for more than a month means his concussion was much more serious and that's one of the primary reasons I think this is a penny wise, pound foolish move.

[Runtherock]

This is a brain injury, and a fairly serious one apparently.  Playing running back is like subjecting yourself to repeat car collisions, right? What possible explanation is there for subjecting someone recovering from a serious brain injury to car collision-like impact....when you don't have to? That's the point. This isn't a freaking hammy, or knee contusion. This is a serious brain injury that lends itself to....additional serious brain injuries. The day will come when Shady will have to be tested again, but not now. Not so soon. Not with the season lost. There is no logical reason to risk it.

[mjkvol]

Runtherock, on 20 December 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

This is a brain injury, and a fairly serious one apparently.  Playing running back is like subjecting yourself to repeat car collisions, right? What possible explanation is there for subjecting someone recovering from a serious brain injury to car collision-like impact....when you don't have to? That's the point. This isn't a freaking hammy, or knee contusion. This is a serious brain injury that lends itself to....additional serious brain injuries. The day will come when Shady will have to be tested again, but not now. Not so soon. Not with the season lost. There is no logical reason to risk it.

Playing professional football is like subjecting yourself to repeated car collisions, genius.      But this is their chosen profession, and why they are paid incredible amounts of money accordingly.      'When you don't have to'?       What the hell does that even mean?        Why doesn't every team that is out of the hunt sit its star players, whether they are healthy or not?       Very simply, because of the fact that professional sports are an entertainment business first and foremost.

Has McCoy or his agent made any noise about sitting?      No, because if he's medically cleared to play, then they understand that it is his job to play.     I'd also bet that there are incentives in his contract for him to play for, and the kid wants to get back on the field.  

I obviously understand that part of being a fan has always been about second guessing coaching decisions and ripping players, but now we're doctors as well?     What the hell do you know about head injuries?       Do you even know if he's any more at risk now than he will be in September, or any time he steps on the field again?       If not, then please drop the superior attitude.

[RPeeteRules]

So if this game meant something to the Eagles, it would be okay to play him?  The risk of being injured again would be the same regardless if the game meant something or it doesn't.

[f_dallas]

mjkvol, on 21 December 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

Playing professional football is like subjecting yourself to repeated car collisions, genius.   But this is their chosen profession, and why they are paid incredible amounts of money accordingly.   'When you don't have to'?    What the hell does that even mean? Why doesn't every team that is out of the hunt sit its star players, whether they are healthy or not?    Very simply, because of the fact that professional sports are an entertainment business first and foremost.

Has McCoy or his agent made any noise about sitting?   No, because if he's medically cleared to play, then they understand that it is his job to play. I'd also bet that there are incentives in his contract for him to play for, and the kid wants to get back on the field.  

I obviously understand that part of being a fan has always been about second guessing coaching decisions and ripping players, but now we're doctors as well? What the hell do you know about head injuries?    Do you even know if he's any more at risk now than he will be in September, or any time he steps on the field again?    If not, then please drop the superior attitude.

I don't quite get your logic here.  Shady wants to play.  Players almost always want to play.  He probably would have played a month ago if they let him.  This isn't about him being unwilling to do his job or the amount of money he gets paid.  This is about the investment the Eagles have in him and his value to the future of the team.

As far as the doctors clearing him, concussions are an inexact science.  If he was cleared early in the season, I'd agree that he should return.  It's a risk, but it's a risk everyone accepts.  We've seen the doctors get this wrong countless times, though.  Being cleared with just two games remaining in the regular season and nothing to gain from him playing?  I see no reason to roll the dice.  We saw Westbrook come back too early in 2010, suffer a second concussion on a relatively innocuous hit, and it essentially ended his career.  I'd rather not take that risk with Shady in a lost season.

[f_dallas]

RPeeteRules, on 21 December 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

So if this game meant something to the Eagles, it would be okay to play him?  The risk of being injured again would be the same regardless if the game meant something or it doesn't.

Yes.  If there was something to gain from him playing, I'd play him.  There would be some potential reward associated with the risk.

We can't look at these decisions in a vacuum.  If the Eagles were 12-2 and had home field locked up for the playoffs, I'd rest him until the playoffs.  If they were fighting for a playoff spot, I'd play him.  In a lost season, I'd shut him down.

[RPeeteRules]

f_dallas, on 21 December 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Yes.  If there was something to gain from him playing, I'd play him.  There would be some potential reward associated with the risk.

We can't look at these decisions in a vacuum.  If the Eagles were 12-2 and had home field locked up for the playoffs, I'd rest him until the playoffs.  If they were fighting for a playoff spot, I'd play him.  In a lost season, I'd shut him down.

But if your concern is that he's not ready to come back yet, it wouldn't matter if they were fighting for a playoff spot or not.  Per the team doctors and every test that was given, he is ready and he wants to play this week, which is why he's playing.  The risk of getting another concussion is something that he'll deal with every time he practices or plays in a game, but it shouldn't prevent him from practing ever or not playing in non-meaningful games.

[f_dallas]

RPeeteRules, on 21 December 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

But if your concern is that he's not ready to come back yet, it wouldn't matter if they were fighting for a playoff spot or not.  Per the team doctors and every test that was given, he is ready and he wants to play this week, which is why he's playing.  The risk of getting another concussion is something that he'll deal with every time he practices or plays in a game, but it shouldn't prevent him from practing ever or not playing in non-meaningful games.

My concern is doctors cannot tell you exactly when players face no additional risk for concussion (over players who had not suffered a concussion).  Therefore, they've tried to operationalize what it means to be "healed" and come up with a quantitative procedure that provides them with a baseline and guideline for clearing players.  It is an inexact science.  It's not a guarantee, but an educated guess.  They cannot tell you, definitively, that he is "cured" with no additional risk for re-injury.

This is a risk players assume willingly, but it's pointless for the organization to assume this risk for absolutely no reason (nothing to gain).  It's moronic.  They just watched Westbrook's career end because the doctors were wrong.  With two games left, what is the point in taking that risk again?

You can follow the doctor's guideline for clearing players, but you also have to look at the situation.  With absolutely, literally nothing to gain over the next 9 days, why risk it?

[RPeeteRules]

f_dallas, on 21 December 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

My concern is doctors cannot tell you exactly when players face no additional risk for concussion (over players who had not suffered a concussion).  Therefore, they've come up with a procedure for clearing players to return that provides them with a baseline and guideline for clearing players.  It is an inexact science.  It's not a guarantee, but an educated guess.  They cannot tell you, definitively, that he is "cured" with no additional risk for re-injury.

This is a risk players assume willingly, but it's pointless for the organization to assume this risk for absolutely no reason (nothing to gain).  It's moronic.  They just watched Westbrook's career end because the doctors were wrong.  With two games left, what is the point in taking that risk again?

You can follow the doctor's guideline for clearing players, but you also have to look at the situation.  With absolutely, literally nothing to gain over the next 9 days, why risk it?

But you're assuming that he's possibly not healthy and that it's only okay to risk his health if they were fighting for a playoff spot.  Since McCoy is one of the centerpieces of this team for the forseeable future, why would you even want to risk future years?  It just doesn't make sense how you'd want him to play when you're saying he's potentially not healthy.  All indications is that he is healthy and fully ready go to back to play.  If it was anything less than that, he wouldn't be out there.

[f_dallas]

RPeeteRules, on 21 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

But you're assuming that he's possibly not healthy and that it's only okay to risk his health if they were fighting for a playoff spot.  Since McCoy is one of the centerpieces of this team for the forseeable future, why would you even want to risk future years?  It just doesn't make sense how you'd want him to play when you're saying he's potentially not healthy.  All indications is that he is healthy and fully ready go to back to play.  If it was anything less than that, he wouldn't be out there.

No, I'm not.  I'm saying measuring when a concussion has "healed" is inexact.  Therefore, as a team, you respect that process and use your best judgement.  If he fails the tests for more than a month and is finally cleared with 2 games left in a lost season, there's no reason to risk bringing him back.  What we know, definitively (through scientific study) is he'll be at a lower risk of concussion a few months from now than he is now.  That's the only medical certainty.