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Are the Eagles behind the curve or just being stubborn?


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#1 KOJO

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:16 PM

You may not be able to answer this but since we're all looking ahead now anyway, here goes. I saw this blurb from an SI article & I couldn't help but think about how the Eagles seem to be trending in the exact opposite direction.

Quote

If there is a discernible trend that develops in this year's general manager hiring season, I had more than one current club GM tell me it'll be in favor of the candidates who have the most college scouting and draft experience, rather than those who come from the pro personnel side of the equation.

The reasoning is fairly straight forward. With the success of general managers like Thomas Dimitroff in Atlanta, Trent Baalke in San Francisco and Ryan Grigson in Indianapolis -- all of whom had college scouting backgrounds -- that part of a GM's skill set is greatly valued, especially since draft acumen remains the most proven and successful way to build a roster.

"The guys with college backgrounds, they know how to build a team through the draft,'' said one NFL club executive. "You never talk about building a team through free agency, it's always the draft. But it's kind of a unique skill set, running a draft. Everyone thinks they can do it until they try it. But it's almost like being a GM in some ways. And the draft is the most important component of a GM's job description. The teams that always win -- the Steelers, the Giants, the Packers, the Ravens -- they always have pretty good drafts.''

That's why GM candidates like Atlanta's [David] Caldwell, San Francisco's [Tom] Gamble, the Giants' [Marc] Ross, Green Bay's [John] Dorsey and Arizona's [Steve] Keim figure to be among the most in-demand prospects for those clubs seeking new general managers.


Read More: http://sportsillustr.../#ixzz2GIY3pSNA



We all know Howie Roseman doesn't even come close to fitting that description, so that leaves me to wonder- were the Eagles ignorant of this trend when they promoted Roseman or was it just another case of them seemingly being smarter than everyone else? The fate of this franchise is very much at stake & this certainly will end up having a lot to do with it.



#2 gibsonplyer

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:46 PM

I really don't know what to think about Roseman.  This first draft is a bit of a mixed bag.  Graham is looking real good now that he's healthy.  Allen has been up and down.  I don't remember if we got much else out of there.  The second draft was not good at all.  JJ is obviously just a bad pick (I do give Howie some credit in cutting bait and not keeping him around just because he was a draft pick).  Watkins is a ?.  Maybe he bounces back in another scheme or he's a bust IDK.  Did find Kelce late.  Those two drafts alone to look at I'd say fire and replace him but this last draft looks really good.  Not only that but according to Reuben Frank on Twitter this last draft was the first time Howie actually ran the board and IF that's true I say keep him.

IF that is true he didn't have full control of the mixed/bad drafts in his first two years but saw what went wrong then when given the chance to run the draft board he puts together one heck of a draft.  Cox has looked very good pretty much all year.  Kendricks has had some struggles but he has shined and his issues could be attributed to 1) the Wide 9  2)  playing on the wrong side  3)  being a rookie.  I still have high hopes for him.  Curry is still unknown because the coaches haven't put him on the field.  He did have some flashes though.  Foles has potential and could be our starting QB going forward (I know the jury is still out).  Boykin had his ups then some downs but he's been playing better lately.  Then you have the late round gamble that paid off  in Bryce Brown (huge pay off if he fixes his fumbling issues over the off season).

All I can say is I hope Lurie knows the truth of how these drafts went down.  If he only called the shots on the last one give him at least another year.  Remember he was also seemingly the only GM smart enough to give Houston a call to nab Ryans.  If however this isn't true there should be definite thought given to replacing him.

#3 patpikunas

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:04 PM

View Postgibsonplyer, on 27 December 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

I really don't know what to think about Roseman.  This first draft is a bit of a mixed bag.  Graham is looking real good now that he's healthy.  Allen has been up and down.  I don't remember if we got much else out of there.  The second draft was not good at all.  JJ is obviously just a bad pick (I do give Howie some credit in cutting bait and not keeping him around just because he was a draft pick).  Watkins is a ?.  Maybe he bounces back in another scheme or he's a bust IDK.  Did find Kelce late.  Those two drafts alone to look at I'd say fire and replace him but this last draft looks really good.  Not only that but according to Reuben Frank on Twitter this last draft was the first time Howie actually ran the board and IF that's true I say keep him.

IF that is true he didn't have full control of the mixed/bad drafts in his first two years but saw what went wrong then when given the chance to run the draft board he puts together one heck of a draft.  Cox has looked very good pretty much all year.  Kendricks has had some struggles but he has shined and his issues could be attributed to 1) the Wide 9  2)  playing on the wrong side  3)  being a rookie.  I still have high hopes for him.  Curry is still unknown because the coaches haven't put him on the field.  He did have some flashes though.  Foles has potential and could be our starting QB going forward (I know the jury is still out).  Boykin had his ups then some downs but he's been playing better lately.  Then you have the late round gamble that paid off  in Bryce Brown (huge pay off if he fixes his fumbling issues over the off season).

All I can say is I hope Laurie knows the truth of how these drafts went down.  If he only called the shots on the last one give him at least another year.  Remember he was also seemingly the only GM smart enough to give Houston a call to nab Ryans.  If however this isn't true there should be definite thought given to replacing him.

Wow- you are more optimistic about the recent drafts than I am.

I really hope some of the guys you mention above work out (Graham, Cox, Curry, Kendricks, Boykin, Brown) now that they may be given a reasonable shot in a new system under new coaching.

I am not optimistic that Howie can handle this. I am pretty certain however that Lurie will be handing the keys to the day to day management of the football side of the operation with the Coaching staff reporting into him.

The OP and attached article makes a great point. Howie has shown to be a savvy negotiator and businessman, but is he really capable of running the entire Football side of the operation? I guess it can't get much worse than its been over the last 6-7 years under Reid's leadership, but he be able to get us back to building a high functioning and high performing football team through the DRAFT and not so dependent on free agency?

#4 mjkvol

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:40 PM

If Lurie didn't see the folly of building through free agency these last two seasons, then we have no hope. It still astounds me how many fans here ripped the Redskins for taking this approach a few years back, yet applauded when we went that route, and are still pining away for more this off season!

I don't know how competent Roseman is (and I certainly don't trust Lurie at this point), but my mindset right now is that the 'addition by subtraction' of Reid from the process can only improve our chances of building something lasting here, especially if the upcoming coaching hire is a solid one.

#5 KOJO

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:38 AM

View Postmjkvol, on 27 December 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

I don't know how competent Roseman is (and I certainly don't trust Lurie at this point), but my mindset right now is that the 'addition by subtraction' of Reid from the process can only improve our chances of building something lasting here, especially if the upcoming coaching hire is a solid one.

The thing from that excerpt that really burns me is the mention of Grigson, hence the "being stubborn" half of the thread title- passing up a guy like him in favor of someone who has absolutely zero real football experience.

#6 PoconoDon

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:58 AM

My 2 cents is what it's always been. The draft is the most important component to building a team, and the GMs who have an exceptional eye for talent, are completely plugged in to every college conference, and are very shrewd deal makers, are rare and should always be a team's #1 priority to acquire. Roseman is not that and has no business being an NFL GM. If he goes on the road for 5-10 years, scouts players in person, and shows a top 5% ability to identify great prospects every year he's out there doing it...then yes, put him into the mix for the job.

  Until then, no thank you. He's an exceptionally trained contract attorney who learned at the heels of Joe Banner....overseeing player contracts is the best fit for him in my opinion, and while less glamorous than other jobs, it is a vitally important part of the equation. He could help a ton in that role.

At his point, since Grigson is long gone, my vote is what it was when I expressed concern over his leaving...Marc Ross is probably the best guy they can get. there may be another out there that I don't know about, but I hope Lurie gives him an interview at least.

Then again....Lurie may think he's "fine there" at the GM position. If so, I don't believe the Eagles will win a Superbowl no matter what else they do short of paying 31 other teams to lose to them.

As a fan, I'll wait patiently and cautiously for the results of Lurie's decisions.

#7 Rodney_Zero

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:50 PM

View Postmjkvol, on 27 December 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

If Lurie didn't see the folly of building through free agency these last two seasons, then we have no hope. It still astounds me how many fans here ripped the Redskins for taking this approach a few years back, yet applauded when we went that route, and are still pining away for more this off season!

.
In FA, it's not about how many, or who, but finding those right players that fit what you do "scheme wise" , mistake #1, having Asante, trading for DRC, signing namdi, way too much overkill.

#8 mjkvol

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:34 AM

View PostKOJO, on 27 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

You may not be able to answer this but since we're all looking ahead now anyway, here goes. I saw this blurb from an SI article & I couldn't help but think about how the Eagles seem to be trending in the exact opposite direction.

[/background][/left]


We all know Howie Roseman doesn't even come close to fitting that description, so that leaves me to wonder- were the Eagles ignorant of this trend when they promoted Roseman or was it just another case of them seemingly being smarter than everyone else? The fate of this franchise is very much at stake & this certainly will end up having a lot to do with it.

Funny thing - one of the hottest names being mentioned as a GM candidate was a good childhood friend of mine in Haddonfield, NJ - Tom Gamble of the 49ers.    We remember his father Harry when he worked for Braman, but I knew them years before that, in the early '70's when Harry was coaching Penn. They lived on my block, and I went to several games with Tommy and we would hang out on the Penn sideline at Franklin Field.   We moved, and I lost touch with him, as most kids do when moving young.

He is exactly the type of GM teams are looking for now - schooled in college scouting and running a draft, as well as being able to deal with pro personnel and the salary cap.    The problem with Roseman is that he skipped the college scouting part of that equation, and we might find out the hard way that he isn't equipped to compete with the Gambles and Marc Ross's of the league.  

Hopefully, Lurie is consulting with people who are advising him of this trend. Sadly, I wouldn't bet on it.

#9 KOJO

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

View Postmjkvol, on 29 December 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

He is exactly the type of GM teams are looking for now - schooled in college scouting and running a draft, as well as being able to deal with pro personnel and the salary cap.    The problem with Roseman is that he skipped the college scouting part of that equation, and we might find out the hard way that he isn't equipped to compete with the Gambles and Marc Ross's of the league.  

Hopefully, Lurie is consulting with people who are advising him of this trend. Sadly, I wouldn't bet on it.

He's probably consulting with Andy Reid. <_<

#10 HazletonEagle

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:17 PM

View PostOppomypottowl, on 29 December 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

View PostOppomypottowl, on 29 December 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

best posts in the thread.

#11 eaglesaddict

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:02 AM

Lurie doesn't care as long as he keeps raking in the dough from the fans and Roseman keeps jerking him off in the booth while Lurie thinks about his ex-wife doing the cheerleaders. Both Roseman and Reid will be here next season.


#12 CT Eagle

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:02 AM

I guess the answer lies in part with Joe Banner.  Was he a good GM ?

I also think that the Eagles' FO may be structured a bit differently than others.   Howie may lean more on the college scouting dept than many other GMs while others may lean more on their pro personnel or contractual side.

Whatever the answer may be....the Eagles need to do a better job there ;)

#13 mjkvol

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 09:38 AM

View PostCT Eagle, on 30 December 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

I guess the answer lies in part with Joe Banner.  Was he a good GM ?

Banner wasn't a GM, he was a cap / money guy.         The fear is that Roseman is the same.

We're about to find out, hopefully not the hard way.

#14 CT Eagle

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:20 PM

View Postmjkvol, on 30 December 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Banner wasn't a GM, he was a cap / money guy. The fear is that Roseman is the same.

We're about to find out, hopefully not the hard way.
Roseman is Banners disciple.  Assuming Roseman will be the GM next year, the Eagles couldn't possibly be dumb enough to allow Howie to have final say over personnel....right ?  I mean they just couldn't.....right ?  It would be unthinkable....right ? :meh:

#15 mjkvol

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:23 PM

View PostCT Eagle, on 30 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Roseman is Banners disciple.  Assuming Roseman will be the GM next year, the Eagles couldn't possibly be dumb enough to allow Howie to have final say over personnel....right ?  I mean they just couldn't.....right ?  It would be unthinkable....right ? :meh:

The only thing worse would be a Roseman/Reid tandem ...... wait, that's what got us to this exalted level!

#16 KOJO

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

View Postmjkvol, on 30 December 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

The only thing worse would be a Roseman/Reid tandem ...... wait, that's what got us to this exalted level!

Salvation is just a few hours away my friend.

#17 mjkvol

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:56 PM

View PostKOJO, on 30 December 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Salvation is just a few hours away my friend.

Hope you saw my "Free at last, free at last...." thread before the gestapo eliminated it.

#18 PoconoDon

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

View Postmjkvol, on 30 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Hope you saw my "Free at last, free at last...." thread before the gestapo eliminated it.

Hope you saw my responses to it before....well, you know.....

#19 mjkvol

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:59 PM

View PostPoconoDon, on 30 December 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Hope you saw my responses to it before....well, you know.....

Saw it, just in the nick of time, before guns began blazing!

#20 KOJO

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

View PostPoconoDon, on 30 December 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Hope you saw my responses to it before....well, you know.....

View Postmjkvol, on 30 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Hope you saw my "Free at last, free at last...." thread before the gestapo eliminated it.

Looks like I'm too late. :sad:

#21 PoconoDon

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

View Postmjkvol, on 30 December 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Saw it, just in the nick of time, before guns began blazing!

cool..............I'll try again......does this song capture even a little piece of your feelings?

http://www.youtube.c...ADj0TPrJA#t=23s

#22 KOJO

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

I'm going with this.



#23 mjkvol

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

This one is more fitting for the moment, Poc:



#24 PoconoDon

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:10 PM

Nice choice............. :thumbsup:

#25 mjkvol

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

View PostKOJO, on 30 December 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

I'm going with this.



That works as well!!