Jump to content


- - - - -

Roster needs an overhaul


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
43 replies to this topic

#1 pgcd3

pgcd3

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,980 posts
  • Location:Santa Monica, CA
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:07 PM

Agreed but are you still pretending Roseman has done a good job? He's been GM for 3 years. The team has gotten worse each year and now you say the roster needs an overhaul

#2 CaliEagle

CaliEagle

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,721 posts
  • Location:California
  • Team:Eagles
  • Fan Since:1978

Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:14 PM

Even some of the talented players need to go because of the lack of chemistry.  There needs to be a complete, thorough evaluation and get rid of the cancers in the locker room.

#3 Runtherock

Runtherock

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,772 posts
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

Howie Roseman and David Spadaro, last men standing.

#4 pgcd3

pgcd3

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,980 posts
  • Location:Santa Monica, CA
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:05 AM

Difference is Dave deserves his job. He's done a nice job with the site all these years

#5 PoconoDon

PoconoDon

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,849 posts
  • Location:The Poconos
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:21 AM

It's REALLY tough watching a guy with no real training or experience in player scouting trying to develop from scratch in a profession where 10-15 years of doing the dirty work may not be enough to prepare him.....and then KNOWING that the present and the future of the franchise rests on his shoulders......

If Lurie keeps him there at GM, it will be ANOTHER counter intuitive move that is beyond justifiable in any way..........yet I expect Jeffrey will do exactly that because while he likes football, he doesn't really understand it.

Here's a piece of advice for Jeffrey Lurie:

"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting." - Sun TZU

In football, it's done by breaking the will of the other team by building your own team to be....bigger, stronger, faster, nastier, and more relentless...make them quit before you even play. When they look at the schedule, they privately think..."we can't beat them...I don't even want to play them...it hurts too much". In this age of soft prima donnas and paycheck players, it's easier to break the will of 31 teams than it used to be.

To build that type of team, you're gonna need a top shelf GM......and you don't have one Mr. Lurie.

#6 pgcd3

pgcd3

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,980 posts
  • Location:Santa Monica, CA
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:29 AM

In Luries tenure they have progressively gotten worse and worse front office talent and the results speak for themselves. It's down to Roseman and that's truly just sad. When Grigson left I don't even think they replaced him with a body

#7 Erie

Erie

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,272 posts
  • Location:Erie, PA
  • Team:Eagles
  • Fan Since:Jaws

Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:42 AM

I'm thinking Roseman got a long extension this past off-season. Doubt he goes.

Edited by Erie, 31 December 2012 - 08:43 AM.


#8 patpikunas

patpikunas

    Superstar

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,887 posts
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:16 AM

The entire Organization needs a purging..... The smugness, arrogance and sense of entitlement is apparent throughout

#9 CT Eagle

CT Eagle

    Superstar

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,741 posts
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:17 AM

View PostErie, on 31 December 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

I'm thinking Roseman got a long extension this past off-season. Doubt he goes.
The question is if they let Roseman head the player personnel dept. or if they bring in someone senior there and reduce Howie's responsibility.
Why would a top HC candidate take a job that has an inexperienced GM with a poor (albeit incomplete) track record in charge of the personnel ?

#10 patpikunas

patpikunas

    Superstar

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,887 posts
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:28 AM

View PostCT Eagle, on 31 December 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

The question is if they let Roseman head the player personnel dept. or if they bring in someone senior there and reduce Howie's responsibility.
Why would a top HC candidate take a job that has an inexperienced GM with a poor (albeit incomplete) track record in charge of the personnel ?

WHich is precisely why I see them going College Coach or NFL assistant route.

Less pedigree, more control they have to give up.

#11 CT Eagle

CT Eagle

    Superstar

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,741 posts
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:41 AM

View Postpatpikunas, on 31 December 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

WHich is precisely why I see them going College Coach or NFL assistant route.

Less pedigree, more control they have to give up.
The only other option would be a retread which no one wants.....

They need to hire both a HC and a top personnel guy.

#12 pgcd3

pgcd3

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,980 posts
  • Location:Santa Monica, CA
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:18 PM

The spin was complete today. My question is what did Howie actually do for his first two years as GM? They are selling us on the idea that he essentially had no job function

#13 KOJO

KOJO

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,988 posts
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

View Postpgcd3, on 31 December 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

The spin was complete today. My question is what did Howie actually do for his first two years as GM? They are selling us on the idea that he essentially had no job function

The way he explained it on the radio was that he just assisted on parts of those two drafts, but actually ran this last one. I don't know exactly how much responsibility his "assisting" took in.

#14 PoconoDon

PoconoDon

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,849 posts
  • Location:The Poconos
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:21 AM

View PostKOJO, on 31 December 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

The way he explained it on the radio was that he just assisted on parts of those two drafts, but actually ran this last one. I don't know exactly how much responsibility his "assisting" took in.

I don't either, but I'm sure we're gonna find out what running the draft means from here on out. I hope he's the best kept secret in the NFL......and if he's not, there's no place to hide...it's all on him now.

#15 pgcd3

pgcd3

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,980 posts
  • Location:Santa Monica, CA
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:20 AM

It's pretty ridiculous really. Lurie told us that the guy they called GM for 2 years really wasn't the GM. And oh yeah the year he was GM and the team only won 4 games you should just judge him on a few draft picks the first of which Fletcher Cox a 1st grader could have picked it was so obvious

#16 PoconoDon

PoconoDon

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,849 posts
  • Location:The Poconos
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:24 AM

Here's what I took from Lurie statements about Howie Roseman:

1. Lurie keeps detailed and voluminous notes of EVERYONE's talent evaluation of players so he can, over time, assess each person's accuracy from draft to draft.

2. That the notes are not only on just the players that the Eagles draft but all of the prospects, so as they perform around the league, he gets a better picture of evaluator talent in house.

3. That until the 2012 draft and FA period, Howie graded players and submitted reports and recommendations that others (Reid & Banner when he was here) used to make final decisions.

4. That, according to Lurie, Howie was by far the best evaluator he has and earned the right to run a draft and FA period, which he did in 2012.

5. That even though Howie ran it, the draft and FA period, as ALWAYS with his Eagles, is NOT a 1 man show, and NEVER will be.

6. The HC has a lot of input and they are supposed to work TOGETHER when deciding who they take, and that is what has happened for the most part.

7. The new HC will have quite a bit of autonomy, as meted out by Lurie directly, as long as he works with Howie, relies on Howie, and understands that Howie is a GREAT talent evaluator.

8. Howie's in house track record is so good that it made Lurie's decision extremely easy to make and keep Howie as GM.

9. Lurie is only going to judge Howie's performance from the 2012 draft/FA period and beyond...there were too many cooks spoiling the broth before that.

10. ALL of what he said may very well be true, or it may be nothing more than a thinly veiled sales pitch to make the Eagles attractive to HC candidates...autonomy, great supporting personnel staff, family atmosphere, etc., etc., etc.

MOST important for me as a fan...Since the young man is in the spot light, there is NOWHERE to hide....it's on him now to find terrific young players in rounds 1-2, pro bowl capable talent in rounds 3-5, and solid special teamers and backups in rounds 6-7...not with every pick/every year, but with consistency......all while making smart trades and moving extra picks forward and up in round(s) into future drafts so  that a stock pile early is manufactured in the drafts that have the most to offer.  Why ask so much? Because that's what a top shelf GM does..year in and year out....we'll see if he really is one pretty soon.

#17 mjkvol

mjkvol

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,482 posts
  • Team:Eagles
  • Fan Since:Birth

Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

View PostPoconoDon, on 01 January 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

MOST important for me as a fan...Since the young man is in the spot light, there is NOWHERE to hide....it's on him now to find terrific young players in rounds 1-2, pro bowl capable talent in rounds 3-5, and solid special teamers and backups in rounds 6-7...not with every pick/every year, but with consistency......all while making smart trades and moving extra picks forward and up in round(s) into future drafts so  that a stock pile early is manufactured in the drafts that have the most to offer.  Why ask so much? Because that's what a top shelf GM does..year in and year out....we'll see if he really is one pretty soon.

The best part of that, to me (aside from having hopefully sane schemes for a change), is that he laid it on Roseman's lap, with, as you say, no ambiguity and nowhere to hide.

This time, Lurie has to hold the responsible parties accountable.

#18 Highboy

Highboy

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,085 posts
  • Location:Ronda Rousey's Bathroom
  • Team:Eagles
  • Fan Since:Ronda

Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

View Postmjkvol, on 01 January 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

The best part of that, to me (aside from having hopefully sane schemes for a change), is that he laid it on Roseman's lap, with, as you say, no ambiguity and nowhere to hide.

This time, Lurie has to hold the responsible parties accountable.

But this is where I'm not as optimistic as you about this new "moving on" we're doing. Lurie is still the owner, and while you previously gave Reid something like 75% of the blame, I give Lurie about 80% and Reid the other 20%. I'm not faulting Lurie for ever hiring Reid, that was a good move, but to give him the seemingly limitlessly long leash to continuously fail over and over again and have him involved in countless decisions no HC should have the final say in, the blame lays with him. I have no reason to think that if Lurie is able to rally the fan base again behind a new fresh perspective at HC that if that regime has even a remote amount of early success that the same thing won't happen again. Lurie signed off on Vick as well, and I hate to pile on Vick (yes I said that) that clearly was more of a jersey selling decision that one that anyone actually thought would result in a SB. Lurie made the horrible GM decisions as well. As long as he is the owner, my excitement level right now is 50/50. I don't expect him to fire himself, but in terms of holding responsible parties accountable, he needs to take a hard look at how he's operated the past 14 years.

#19 pgcd3

pgcd3

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,980 posts
  • Location:Santa Monica, CA
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

View Postmjkvol, on 01 January 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

The best part of that, to me (aside from having hopefully sane schemes for a change), is that he laid it on Roseman's lap, with, as you say, no ambiguity and nowhere to hide.

This time, Lurie has to hold the responsible parties accountable.

It really hasn't though. Lurie did not make it clear who would get final say with the picks. In fact it seemed like the new HC might again. So how far fetched would  a new spin blaming the next coach be in 2 years?

#20 PoconoDon

PoconoDon

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,849 posts
  • Location:The Poconos
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:28 PM

Sometimes a HC and a GM want to add different players at the same time. I don't have a problem with Lurie understanding that any trying to create a "team decision" in advance, when it comes to player personnel. That the team is made up of the HC and Howie does make sense. What I would expect then, is that BOTH guys are on the hook equally for player personnel decisions....if the decisions are screwed up, they both get it....one is NOT a scape goat for the other....they BOTH get it.

If that is Lurie's approach, it seems reasonable, but if one is used as a scapegoat to protect the other, then Lurie is the problem....and there's NO fixing that....just don't give him your money, because that's all you can do to express dissatisfaction.

#21 pgcd3

pgcd3

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,980 posts
  • Location:Santa Monica, CA
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:02 PM

View PostPoconoDon, on 01 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Sometimes a HC and a GM want to add different players at the same time. I don't have a problem with Lurie understanding that any trying to create a "team decision" in advance, when it comes to player personnel. That the team is made up of the HC and Howie does make sense. What I would expect then, is that BOTH guys are on the hook equally for player personnel decisions....if the decisions are screwed up, they both get it....one is NOT a scape goat for the other....they BOTH get it.

If that is Lurie's approach, it seems reasonable, but if one is used as a scapegoat to protect the other, then Lurie is the problem....and there's NO fixing that....just don't give him your money, because that's all you can do to express dissatisfaction.

Someone needs to be the ultimate decision maker though. It doesn't seem like Lurie is that guy when it comes to personnel so while everyone has input who makes the decision, Howie or the coach?

#22 mjkvol

mjkvol

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,482 posts
  • Team:Eagles
  • Fan Since:Birth

Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:07 PM

View PostHighboy, on 01 January 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

But this is where I'm not as optimistic as you about this new "moving on" we're doing. Lurie is still the owner, and while you previously gave Reid something like 75% of the blame, I give Lurie about 80% and Reid the other 20%. I'm not faulting Lurie for ever hiring Reid, that was a good move, but to give him the seemingly limitlessly long leash to continuously fail over and over again and have him involved in countless decisions no HC should have the final say in, the blame lays with him. I have no reason to think that if Lurie is able to rally the fan base again behind a new fresh perspective at HC that if that regime has even a remote amount of early success that the same thing won't happen again. Lurie signed off on Vick as well, and I hate to pile on Vick (yes I said that) that clearly was more of a jersey selling decision that one that anyone actually thought would result in a SB. Lurie made the horrible GM decisions as well. As long as he is the owner, my excitement level right now is 50/50. I don't expect him to fire himself, but in terms of holding responsible parties accountable, he needs to take a hard look at how he's operated the past 14 years.

Absolutely a reasonable viewpoint, and I don't disagree with any part of it.

For right now, I'm going to stay optimistic, if for no other reason than I've had nothing to be remotely optimistic about for 5-6 years.

As you say, we can't fall into the "relative success is good enough" trap we did with Reid.       If after 2-3 years some clear progress towards the only goal that matters hasn't been achieved, then there should be serious consequences.      If there isn't, then we pretty much know we're f***ed as long as Lurie owns the team.

#23 PoconoDon

PoconoDon

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,849 posts
  • Location:The Poconos
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:09 PM

View Postmjkvol, on 01 January 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Absolutely a reasonable viewpoint, and I don't disagree with any part of it.

For right now, I'm going to stay optimistic, if for no other reason than I've had nothing to be remotely optimistic about for 5-6 years.

As you say, we can't fall into the "relative success is good enough" trap we did with Reid.    If after 2-3 years some clear progress towards the only goal that matters hasn't been achieved, then there should be serious consequences.   If there isn't, then we pretty much know we're f***ed as long as Lurie owns the team.

I labeled it the the Eagles' "Culture of Compromise".........it permeated every part of the team, and I hope it's sole source has now been removed....we'll see.

#24 mjkvol

mjkvol

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,482 posts
  • Team:Eagles
  • Fan Since:Birth

Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:13 PM

View Postpgcd3, on 01 January 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

It really hasn't though. Lurie did not make it clear who would get final say with the picks. In fact it seemed like the new HC might again. So how far fetched would  a new spin blaming the next coach be in 2 years?

Not far fetched, but since we've been through this now for 14 years, and this "towering figure" and "legend" ( :rolleyes: ) has finally been removed from the equation, the national media and fan base won't be quite so willing to keep and laud the status quo.

View PostPoconoDon, on 01 January 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I labeled it the the Eagles' "Culture of Compromise".........it permeated every part of the team, and I hope it's sole source has now been removed....we'll see.

See my post above.

#25 CT Eagle

CT Eagle

    Superstar

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,741 posts
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:40 PM

Lurie, Howie, Reid, and many fans, myself included all felt that the team was almost there.
After McNabb, Vick gave them new hope that they had another shot and due to poor drafting, they went the FA/mercenary path which ruined the team.  I guess you could say the same thing happened with T.O.

It seems like Lurie and Howie accept and acknowledge their mistakes and missteps.  Lurie's confidence and words about Howie's talent evaluation was pretty emphatic and there is no reason to doubt it at this juncture.  Clearly Lurie wants to win badly.  With all the comments about chemistry along with the players comments about many of the players dogging it, it is obvious they are going to clean house.
Get the right coach have a good couple of drafts and we will be back in contention.

#26 mjkvol

mjkvol

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,482 posts
  • Team:Eagles
  • Fan Since:Birth

Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostCT Eagle, on 01 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Lurie, Howie, Reid, and many fans, myself included all felt that the team was almost there.
After McNabb, Vick gave them new hope that they had another shot and due to poor drafting, they went the FA/mercenary path which ruined the team.  I guess you could say the same thing happened with T.O.

It seems like Lurie and Howie accept and acknowledge their mistakes and missteps.  Lurie's confidence and words about Howie's talent evaluation was pretty emphatic and there is no reason to doubt it at this juncture.  Clearly Lurie wants to win badly.  With all the comments about chemistry along with the players comments about many of the players dogging it, it is obvious they are going to clean house.
Get the right coach have a good couple of drafts and we will be back in contention.

Totally agree that at the moment to not be optimistic makes no sense - we have the desperately needed major change, now go and get a solid coach and let's move forward.

It's now in the past, but given that Reid was here, to me there was never a reason to think anything would ever change.     I thought the Vick debacle was a gimmick to sell jerseys and get a draft pick - it was pure fantasy to believe that the combination of Reid and Vick had a prayer of winning a championship.

Thank God the whole mess that was the last five years is now in the rearview mirror.

#27 pgcd3

pgcd3

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,980 posts
  • Location:Santa Monica, CA
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

View PostCT Eagle, on 01 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Lurie, Howie, Reid, and many fans, myself included all felt that the team was almost there.

Get the right coach have a good couple of drafts and we will be back in contention.

That's easier said than done. Right now they've had one good draft in a row. And let's face it guys like Kendricks, Curry & Boykin could easily not be starting in 2 years. They might but might not.

I get that Lurie thinks Howie evaluates players well but he didn't seem to suggest that beyond the draft. So even if we believe Lurie and Howie gets 3 good players next year and 3 the following that's not nearly enough. We need a personnel guy who can build a team of players that fit and work together. Lurie really described Howie in terms of a head scout's job not a GM. What we're left with is hoping they pick a coach who can contribute in a major way to personnel moves. And while most coaches want that authority very few are successful with it. Obviously we'll see.

#28 CT Eagle

CT Eagle

    Superstar

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,741 posts
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

View Postpgcd3, on 01 January 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

That's easier said than done. Right now they've had one good draft in a row. And let's face it guys like Kendricks, Curry & Boykin could easily not be starting in 2 years. They might but might not.

I get that Lurie thinks Howie evaluates players well but he didn't seem to suggest that beyond the draft. So even if we believe Lurie and Howie gets 3 good players next year and 3 the following that's not nearly enough. We need a personnel guy who can build a team of players that fit and work together. Lurie really described Howie in terms of a head scout's job not a GM. What we're left with is hoping they pick a coach who can contribute in a major way to personnel moves. And while most coaches want that authority very few are successful with it. Obviously we'll see.
It is a major undertaking and there is a huge hill to climb in a super competitive league.  No guarantees.  I do think we have a committed owner, up and coming GM, and we are starting to put our best foot forward.  All we can ask for at this point.

#29 pgcd3

pgcd3

    EMB Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 34,980 posts
  • Location:Santa Monica, CA
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:08 PM

View PostCT Eagle, on 01 January 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

It is a major undertaking and there is a huge hill to climb in a super competitive league.  No guarantees.  I do think we have a committed owner, up and coming GM, and we are starting to put our best foot forward.  All we can ask for at this point.

I don't doubt Lurie's commitment. I do think the structure he has in place without a traditional GM is less likely to succeed than a Giants type structure. I also think it's a bit dubious to say Howie hasn't contributed to the mess BUT we can only hope for the best. I do believe this team can be back with the right sequence of moves. I'm just a bit more skeptical that they'll be able to execute it than you are. Hopefully something will change my mind soon. I'll be watching either way of course

#30 CT Eagle

CT Eagle

    Superstar

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,741 posts
  • Team:Eagles

Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:18 PM

View Postpgcd3, on 01 January 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

I don't doubt Lurie's commitment. I do think the structure he has in place without a traditional GM is less likely to succeed than a Giants type structure. I also think it's a bit dubious to say Howie hasn't contributed to the mess BUT we can only hope for the best. I do believe this team can be back with the right sequence of moves. I'm just a bit more skeptical that they'll be able to execute it than you are. Hopefully something will change my mind soon. I'll be watching either way of course
I am hopeful but it would be premature to be optimistic at this point !