31 replies to this topic

[pgcd3]

This a real question. Let's just say we take Lurie's speech at its word and Howie Roseman in 3 years is responsible for about 5 guys on the 53-man roster. Basically we only judge Howie on the 2012 draft according to Lurie. Well discounting 2010 and 2011 completely, what about the rest of the 2012 offseason? Was that Howie's?

This new miracle concept of taking BPA instead of forcing need sounds great but even coach Mike Zordich said he expected them to get a safety in the draft. They didn't force it. You can agree or disagree but the fact is they went into the season with poor personnel at safety.

Again let's say Howie has another good draft in 2013 but doesn't force safety (and safety is just one example here). Who is responsible for completing the team? Lurie wasn't clear about whether Howie will have more responsibility or if he's even skilled outside the draft. He really only talked of how the process was 'streamlined' in 2012 and all was well.  

If you keep a similar setup  as now and the head coach has say over personnel and you select an offensive oriented HC then who's pulling in the defensive talent?

Though I've been critical of Howie this really isn't a shot at him. I believe Lurie that Howie has graded players well.  It's a real question.  Who is responsible?

[L.E.]

I would imagine they'll have a new DC in here who will be giving his input. Speaking of Safetys, I saw Jarrett got picked up by the Jets.

[alterbridge81081]

The big reason Andy was let go was due to bad drafting. Our secondary is the worst

[time2rock]

I'm guessing that is all to be determined, depending on who they hire as HC and what level of responsibility is given to him in regard to personnel.  I think it is probably safe to assume the HC and Howie will work together in player evaluation, etc., and also a pretty good chance our next HC is offense-oriented.  Would have to hope the new HC hires a strong DC that perhaps could be included in the player evaluation on defense - similar to how JJ would make requests to Reid for certain players.

[EagleJoe8]

I don't follow college. Are there decent safties in this draft?

[pgcd3]

time2rock, on 02 January 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

I'm guessing that is all to be determined, depending on who they hire as HC and what level of responsibility is given to him in regard to personnel.  I think it is probably safe to assume the HC and Howie will work together in player evaluation, etc., and also a pretty good chance our next HC is offense-oriented.  Would have to hope the new HC hires a strong DC that perhaps could be included in the player evaluation on defense - similar to how JJ would make requests to Reid for certain players.

So now we have to hire a HC who is not only a very good coach but who is also strong in personnel and they in turn have to hire a DC who is not only a very good coach but is very strong in personnel. Doesn't this seem much more prone to failure than having a strong front office structure with a traditional GM who takes input from coaches but does the lion's share of the personnel work?

[time2rock]

pgcd3, on 02 January 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

So now we have to hire a HC who is not only a very good coach but who is also strong in personnel and they in turn have to hire a DC who is not only a very good coach but is very strong in personnel. Doesn't this seem much more prone to failure than having a strong front office structure with a traditional GM who takes input from coaches but does the lion's share of the personnel work?

Not arguing with any of that - I agree and wish that was the direction Lurie went.  I was only answering the original question about who would most likely be responsible for finding a S.  In his PC, Lurie commented that he envisioned the new HC and Howie working together, and also that one of the most important traits of a new HC is his ability to hire well (strong coordinators/asst coaches), so just putting the pieces together in what I think this is how they see things working in the near future.

[biglou22]

pgcd3, on 02 January 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

This a real question. Let's just say we take Lurie's speech at its word and Howie Roseman in 3 years is responsible for about 5 guys on the 53-man roster. Basically we only judge Howie on the 2012 draft according to Lurie. Well discounting 2010 and 2011 completely, what about the rest of the 2012 offseason? Was that Howie's?

This new miracle concept of taking BPA instead of forcing need sounds great but even coach Mike Zordich said he expected them to get a safety in the draft. They didn't force it. You can agree or disagree but the fact is they went into the season with poor personnel at safety.

Again let's say Howie has another good draft in 2013 but doesn't force safety (and safety is just one example here). Who is responsible for completing the team? Lurie wasn't clear about whether Howie will have more responsibility or if he's even skilled outside the draft. He really only talked of how the process was 'streamlined' in 2012 and all was well.  

If you keep a similar setup  as now and the head coach has say over personnel and you select an offensive oriented HC then who's pulling in the defensive talent?

Though I've been critical of Howie this really isn't a shot at him. I believe Lurie that Howie has graded players well.  It's a real question.  Who is responsible?

Not sure why you have such an issue with Howie, unless you know the inner workings that no fan does or you know him personally. But you have been pretty hard on him.
Anyway. It appears as though things will be run mostly the same, except instead of multiple people having final say on certain players, it will come down to JUST HOWIE.
I am sure the same typical things will be mostly the same though.
1 - endless scouts and player personnel people will sit with Howie and their notes and give Howie their opinions. Then Howie will break that down to what they ALL think is the best of those lists. And from there Howie will look at some tape and decide who HE THINKS will fit the team the best.
2 - same with free agency. The Eagles have seperate people that all they do is look at the upcoming FA players. They are evaluated by those people, handed to Howie and I am sure he runs it by the head coach and coordinators of who THEY think would fit the best. But like everything else now, Howie will do his own evaluation and make the final decisions.

[pgcd3]

biglou22, on 02 January 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Not sure why you have such an issue with Howie, unless you know the inner workings that no fan does or you know him personally. But you have been pretty hard on him.
Anyway. It appears as though things will be run mostly the same, except instead of multiple people having final say on certain players, it will come down to JUST HOWIE.
I am sure the same typical things will be mostly the same though.
1 - endless scouts and player personnel people will sit with Howie and their notes and give Howie their opinions. Then Howie will break that down to what they ALL think is the best of those lists. And from there Howie will look at some tape and decide who HE THINKS will fit the team the best.
2 - same with free agency. The Eagles have seperate people that all they do is look at the upcoming FA players. They are evaluated by those people, handed to Howie and I am sure he runs it by the head coach and coordinators of who THEY think would fit the best. But like everything else now, Howie will do his own evaluation and make the final decisions.

It wasn't at all clear that Howie will have final say in the draft or particularly in free agency from Lurie's speech.

[biglou22]

EagleJoe8, on 02 January 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

I don't follow college. Are there decent safties in this draft?

It's funny, this is the 1st year I didn't follow college in probably 2 decades. So unlike every other year I can't give or have absolutely ZERO COMMENT or OPINION.
Kinda weird.
And now that I didn't watch any football, it is even more baffling to me as to how sooo many fans admit they watch very ;little football but talk about who they would take or like or hate certain picks.
I mean if you never watched these kids how the hell can you have an opinion. ????
It's not like you can go look at the publications and the experts becuase they are sooo wrong sooo often.
It's kinda weird this year.
I guess we will have to just wait for 2-3-4 years to see if they were good or bad safety's in the draft.

[biglou22]

pgcd3, on 02 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

It wasn't at all clear that Howie will have final say in the draft or particularly in free agency from Lurie's speech.

Huh ????
He flat out said that Howie will have final say. And that one of the reasons why is because over the years he has kept notes on who has wanted who and who picked who and Howie was far and away the best talent evaluator and last years draft was 100% all Howies picks.
Now granted, Howie could have just gotten lucky. But apparently over the last few years Howie's suggestions have also been the best.

And not arguing with you,,, but why such the dislike for Howie ???? Just curious.

[EagleJoe8]

biglou22, on 02 January 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

It's funny, this is the 1st year I didn't follow college in probably 2 decades. So unlike every other year I can't give or have absolutely ZERO COMMENT or OPINION.
Kinda weird.
And now that I didn't watch any football, it is even more baffling to me as to how sooo many fans admit they watch very ;little football but talk about who they would take or like or hate certain picks.
I mean if you never watched these kids how the hell can you have an opinion. ????
It's not like you can go look at the publications and the experts becuase they are sooo wrong sooo often.
It's kinda weird this year.
I guess we will have to just wait for 2-3-4 years to see if they were good or bad safety's in the draft.

That's what I do anyway. It usually seems like no matter what name is given for a draft possibility, or whoever actually gets drafted, there are those on both sides who praise the pick, and those that oppose it. Obvious exceptions of course. I don't reall ANYONE liking the Bryan Smith pick, and very very few liking the Te`o and Jarrett picks.

[pgcd3]

biglou22, on 02 January 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Huh ????
He flat out said that Howie will have final say. And that one of the reasons why is because over the years he has kept notes on who has wanted who and who picked who and Howie was far and away the best talent evaluator and last years draft was 100% all Howies picks.
Now granted, Howie could have just gotten lucky. But apparently over the last few years Howie's suggestions have also been the best.

And not arguing with you,,, but why such the dislike for Howie ???? Just curious.

Maybe somebody else can chime in but I heard the talent evaluator part and I heard they streamlined the process in 2012 part but I didn't hear anything about final say. In fact to me he seemed to leave it open based on the coaching hire.

I dislike the results of the team after Howe took over. I'm not one to talk about background. I think his background was OK. Different types of guys can have success but the team's record has gotten worse each year since he took over. Now 3 years later we're told that the GM of the team is basically on the hook for 5 guys out of the 53 man roster. That's just bizarre. And even if you credit him with the 2012 draft the team still got worse from 2011 to 2012. Why is Howie not on the hook for that?

[biglou22]

EagleJoe8, on 02 January 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

That's what I do anyway. It usually seems like no matter what name is given for a draft possibility, or whoever actually gets drafted, there are those on both sides who praise the pick, and those that oppose it. Obvious exceptions of course. I don't reall ANYONE liking the Bryan Smith pick, and very very few liking the Te`o and Jarrett picks.

The odd thing is there are plenty of reaches like the 3 guys you named that turn out to be great picks. Just like there are endless SUPPOSED STUDS that bust.
Very weird thing the draft. Still not sure how all the EXPERTS can be so wrong so often.

But it appears in the little college I have watched and from what I have heard there are NO STUD safety's or CBs this year.
Geez, what a shocker. The Eagles finally get a top 5 pick and their 2 biggest needs aren't top players.

I would still trade that pick and grab extra picks with the #4.Lets face it, the history of top 10 picks is not great anyway.

[biglou22]

pgcd3, on 02 January 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Maybe somebody else can chime in but I heard the talent evaluator part and I heard they streamlined the process in 2012 part but I didn't hear anything about final say. In fact to me he seemed to leave it open based on the coaching hire.

I dislike the results of the team after Howe took over. I'm not one to talk about background. I think his background was OK. Different types of guys can have success but the team's record has gotten worse each year since he took over. Now 3 years later we're told that the GM of the team is basically on the hook for 5 guys out of the 53 man roster. That's just bizarre. And even if you credit him with the 2012 draft the team still got worse from 2011 to 2012. Why is Howie not on the hook for that?

All good points. I guess with me I just don't know for certain, well until Lurie the other day,,, who was responsible for the drastic strategy changes 2 years ago.
And that I fully understand who and how, I am even more comfortable then before.

Listen, I'll be the 1st to tell you that I love going away from the norm in most cases. Especially in the NFL where the failures are endless.
2/3 of the league is run like a drunken sailor is in charge.
1/3 of coaches get fired every year.
3/4 of DCs and OCs are failures
And well over 50% of the draft is a failure.
So I loved that the Eagles went with something crazy like Juan as the DC. I loved that the Eagles didn't hire a former player or former GM and went silly with the young hot shot Howie.
Just like now with the coach. The last thing I want is a former NFL head coach.
Same with the OC and the DC. I don't want any that have already held those positions in the NFL before. I want all new blood.
You look across the NFL and for the most part the staus quo is a failure. Again, 2/3s of the teams in the NFL are parrenial losers. And most try to all do things the same way. I want as far away from that standard mess as possible.

[pgcd3]

biglou22, on 02 January 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

All good points. I guess with me I just don't know for certain, well until Lurie the other day,,, who was responsible for the drastic strategy changes 2 years ago.
And that I fully understand who and how, I am even more comfortable then before.

Listen, I'll be the 1st to tell you that I love going away from the norm in most cases. Especially in the NFL where the failures are endless.
2/3 of the league is run like a drunken sailor is in charge.
1/3 of coaches get fired every year.
3/4 of DCs and OCs are failures
And well over 50% of the draft is a failure.
So I loved that the Eagles went with something crazy like Juan as the DC. I loved that the Eagles didn't hire a former player or former GM and went silly with the young hot shot Howie.
Just like now with the coach. The last thing I want is a former NFL head coach.
Same with the OC and the DC. I don't want any that have already held those positions in the NFL before. I want all new blood.
You look across the NFL and for the most part the staus quo is a failure. Again, 2/3s of the teams in the NFL are parrenial losers. And most try to all do things the same way. I want as far away from that standard mess as possible.

I think this job will be tough for an inexperienced coach. They better pick somebody very strong to deal with locker room cleanup and the media. Xs and Os are just a part of it.

And if we believe this is Howie's first real year as GM then to pick a bunch of inexperienced coaches at their positions gives you a very inexperienced organization as a whole. Doesn't sound that promising to me. But like you said most things fail so who knows what the right combo is anyway

[Nitro276]

Who was responsible for signing Jarrad Page off of the street?  What a flop that was.  At that time, we could have had the other ex-Chief Safety, Bernard Pollard.  In two seasons with the Ravens in tandem with Ed Reed, Pollard has 173 tackles, 4 sacks, and 2 interceptions, and he hits really hard--something missing from our secondary.

[deevo82]

Glaring needs like safety need to be addressed in free agency so you don't have to reach for one in the draft. Whether they can find someone who has talent and is willing to come here is another matter.

There are a few guys who are projecting to go at the top of round 2 at safety so we could pick one up there but the draft can be a lottery.

One thing is certain, no matter what Howie does with the number 4 pick, he has to get it right. Look at Gene Smith at the Jags - C up a draft and you lose your job.

[EagleJoe8]

pgcd3, on 02 January 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Maybe somebody else can chime in but I heard the talent evaluator part and I heard they streamlined the process in 2012 part but I didn't hear anything about final say. In fact to me he seemed to leave it open based on the coaching hire.

I dislike the results of the team after Howe took over. I'm not one to talk about background. I think his background was OK. Different types of guys can have success but the team's record has gotten worse each year since he took over. Now 3 years later we're told that the GM of the team is basically on the hook for 5 guys out of the 53 man roster. That's just bizarre. And even if you credit him with the 2012 draft the team still got worse from 2011 to 2012. Why is Howie not on the hook for that?

Assuming Lurie was truthful about Howie's level of responsibility prior to 2012, and I'm very skeptical about that, it's not realistic to expect 1 draft class to make a major improvement in the 1st year after the team was already turning into a train wreck. Much of this team's issues still were on the coaching, and much was carried over from the failed FA experiment from the year prior. There is a major cultural problem with this team, which if nothing else, I'm glad Howie has at least acknowledged needs to be fixed. I've said before, I'm ambigious on Howie. I like that he will admit to mistakes, and at least as far as the draft is concerned, has shown that they're willing to fix those mistakes. I liked their draft, and I like that they decided to resign their own players instead of a crapload from elsewhere. Bell was obviously a mistake, but no one will ever be perfect, and the decision to sign him, in the wake of the Peters' injury was understandable.

I'm not quite as down on Howie as you, and some others, but I do consider myself a healthy skeptic. Howie still has a lot to prove.

[Netherscourge]

We need a Safety and a CB.

Question is- are there any available at #4 worth spending that pick on? And if not, will the best ones still be there in the second round?

It becomes a best overall player vs. best player to fill a need decision when drafting this high in the draft.

[time2rock]

EagleJoe8, on 02 January 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Assuming Lurie was truthful about Howie's level of responsibility prior to 2012, and I'm very skeptical about that, it's not realistic to expect 1 draft class to make a major improvement in the 1st year after the team was already turning into a train wreck. Much of this team's issues still were on the coaching, and much was carried over from the failed FA experiment from the year prior. There is a major cultural problem with this team, which if nothing else, I'm glad Howie has at least acknowledged needs to be fixed. I've said before, I'm ambigious on Howie. I like that he will admit to mistakes, and at least as far as the draft is concerned, has shown that they're willing to fix those mistakes. I liked their draft, and I like that they decided to resign their own players instead of a crapload from elsewhere. Bell was obviously a mistake, but no one will ever be perfect, and the decision to sign him, in the wake of the Peters' injury was understandable.

I'm not quite as down on Howie as you, and some others, but I do consider myself a healthy skeptic.

My apologies for going off-topic here, but I wonder if Bell would have been a flop had we continued running a traditional OL scheme here.

[mike030270]

Netherscourge, on 02 January 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

We need a Safety and a CB.

Question is- are there any available at #4 worth spending that pick on? And if not, will the best ones still be there in the second round?

It becomes a best overall player vs. best player to fill a need decision when drafting this high in the draft.

Great part is, where ever the safety is, he's in our reach.

[EagleJoe8]

time2rock, on 02 January 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

My apologies for going off-topic here, but I wonder if Bell would have been a flop had we continued running a traditional OL scheme here.

Good question. I never expected Bell, or any replacement, to just fill Peters' shoes, but I did expect that the position would at least not be a liability, if not a strength.

[deevo82]

The poor play of Bell illustrates just how good a line man Peters was (and Herremans as well) to convert from the traditional line play to Mudd's system.

As much criticism that there is over who did what with drafts and free agency with Reid, Banner and Howie, whoever struck the deal to get Peters deserves credit. The guy is a beast and his loss this season cost us dearly. I hope he comes back 100%.

[SNOORDA]

Last year they had issues at lb too and with nnamdi and drc they thought addressing the lbs was more of a priority than the safety spots. But nnamdi and drc both played like crap and the S's too. They did the right thing. It didn't work out and now they need S and CB's

[pgcd3]

EagleJoe8, on 02 January 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Assuming Lurie was truthful about Howie's level of responsibility prior to 2012, and I'm very skeptical about that, it's not realistic to expect 1 draft class to make a major improvement in the 1st year after the team was already turning into a train wreck. Much of this team's issues still were on the coaching, and much was carried over from the failed FA experiment from the year prior. There is a major cultural problem with this team, which if nothing else, I'm glad Howie has at least acknowledged needs to be fixed. I've said before, I'm ambigious on Howie. I like that he will admit to mistakes, and at least as far as the draft is concerned, has shown that they're willing to fix those mistakes. I liked their draft, and I like that they decided to resign their own players instead of a crapload from elsewhere. Bell was obviously a mistake, but no one will ever be perfect, and the decision to sign him, in the wake of the Peters' injury was understandable.

I'm not quite as down on Howie as you, and some others, but I do consider myself a healthy skeptic. Howie still has a lot to prove.

It seems like he admits to problems but as an organization they generally seem to deflect blame away from him every time.

I find some of their spin amusing. They make like going BPA in the draft cured all their ills vs going BPA within a group of positions of need. They just made bad picks. If you overdraft a guy by 10 slots because he plays a position of need that still doesn't excuse a bad pick. They still essentially said Jaiquan Jarrett was the best safety on the board. The player eval was their bigger mistake.not the draft slot.

Also the new spin of building through the draft rather than FA is somewhat comical as well. Of course you want to build through the draft.  The eagles didn't trade away draft picks for old players. Again they made bad picks and were left with holes they needed to fill through FA. The alternative is to leave the holes. Runyan, Troy Vincent, Evan Mathis they were all good FA signings. FA is a part of the process. There is no question you want to make as many good picks as possible. That's not a new philsophy.

Obviously I hope they do great things this offseason. I just get frustrated that they always seem to spin away their past mistakes or blame them on people no longer in the organization.

[SNOORDA]

Firing JC when they did had a very negative effect as well. What? They won 2 whole games after that. They should have waited till the end of the season on that and just moved him back to his old job.

[pgcd3]

SNOORDA, on 02 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Firing JC when they did had a very negative effect as well. What? They won 2 whole games after that. They should have waited till the end of the season on that and just moved him back to his old job.

Never was a JC fan but clearly it hurt. In the end the team was a mess regardless though. It made firing Reid less ambiguous and raised our draft pick.

[bobbywizdum]

deevo82, on 02 January 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Glaring needs like safety need to be addressed in free agency so you don't have to reach for one in the draft. Whether they can find someone who has talent and is willing to come here is another matter.

There are a few guys who are projecting to go at the top of round 2 at safety so we could pick one up there but the draft can be a lottery.

One thing is certain, no matter what Howie does with the number 4 pick, he has to get it right. Look at Gene Smith at the Jags - C up a draft and you lose your job.

this is exactly what created the mess we are in now !!! Instead of drafting quality corners we brought in one via trade and one free agency ...how did they work out again? Trying to fix big holes with free agent band aids rarely works. Sometimes it will even aid in the short term but the bottom line is if you want long term success you have to build your team through the draft.

[#99]

Roseman does not have full control, so Roseman, the scouts, and coaching staff will be responsible.