109 replies to this topic

[VaBeach_Eagle]

NFL Network is discussing this...

[NorCalEagle]

good? yes...elite? no...

[LacesOut]

Very good QB.  Not elite, yet.  Stil needs to get to a SB and maybe be named All-Pro??

I'm a U of Delaware alum who saw him play many many times.  I never in my wildest thoughts imagined him having the success he's had so far in the NFL.  I knew he had  cannon arm, but I figured it would take him some to adjust from I-AA college ball to the NFL, especially starting as a rookie.

He played about 90% of his snaps at UD from the gun in a spread Offense, so I just assumed he would not be that good or comfortable, under center in the NFL.  But at the same time, quite a few coaches and players he played against at UD said that watching him play at that level of college ball was like watching a man play amongst young men.

[dawkins4prez]

Flacco has been knocking on the door of the "almost elite" category for a while and IMO he is officially there now.  I've got him at the bottom end of that Eli/Roth/Cutler group.

[VaBeach_Eagle]

The standards of "elite" have lowered in recent years though...

[Gmen4ever]

Does it really matter? The league is full of very good/great QB's. "Elite" is just another one of those cute little bull**** catch phrases that people cant seem to let go of.

[zenclaybourne]

I suppose it depends on how you define elite. I won't consider anyone elite unless I could make an argument for them being the best in the league. I don't think I would even consider an argument for Flacco...

[VaBeach_Eagle]

zenclaybourne, on 14 January 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

I suppose it depends on how you define elite. I won't consider anyone elite unless I could make an argument for them being the best in the league. I don't think I would even consider an argument for Flacco...

I would take a step further and say that they would have to qualify in that category for multiple years. Not just a single season.

[pencil face]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO..dude chuck and pray the TD to tie the game...

[Footballman175]

5 Straight Years of Winning A Playoff Game

3 AFC Championships

130 QB Rating (5 TDs, 0 INT's) in 2013 Playoffs

...i'd say he is on the brink

[Nerdo3]

He is not elite, he can't carry a team on his back...

[VaBeach_Eagle]

Footballman175, on 14 January 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

3 AFC Championships

He has not been to 3 Super Bowls...

[LacesOut]

Footballman175, on 14 January 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

5 Straight Years of Winning A Playoff Game

3 AFC Championships

130 QB Rating (5 TDs, 0 INT's) in 2013 Playoffs

...i'd say he is on the brink

Good stats.  I knew all that, but I'm waaaaayyyyyyyy to lazy to look stuff like that up! LOLOL

Also, his durability.  I don't think he's ever missed a game in his NFL career.

[vsptroops]

pencil face, on 14 January 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO..dude chuck and pray the TD to tie the game...

isnt that how eli won 2 superbowls?

[skippyx]

Flacco is 7-4 in the playoffs (and 9 of those were road games)
He is 54-26 as a starter.
He is a complete, without a doubt, elite 5th year player.

Peyton Manning was 0-3 and 42-38 as a starter after 5 seasons.
*Eli Manning was 4-3 and 42-29 as a starter after 5 seasons.
McNabb was 5-3 and 43-21 as a starter after 5 seasons.
Brees was 0-1 and 30-33 as a starter after 5 seasons.
***Brady was 9-0 and 48-14 after 5 seasons.
*Montana was 4-1 and 28-21 after 5 seasons.
Ryan is 1-3 and 56-22 after 5 seasons.
**Roethlisberger was 8-2 and 51-20 after 5 seasons.
Rivers was and 33-15 and 3-3 after 5 seasons.
Elway was 4-4 and 46-21-1 after 5 seasons.
Rodgers was 0-1 and 17-15 after 5 years.
*Bradshaw was 4-2 and 32-19 after 5 years.

[VaBeach_Eagle]

skippyx, on 15 January 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

Flacco is 7-4 in the playoffs (and 9 of those were road games)
He is 54-26 as a starter.
He is a complete, without a doubt, elite 5th year player.

Peyton Manning was 0-3 and 42-38 as a starter after 5 seasons.
*Eli Manning was 4-3 and 42-29 as a starter after 5 seasons.
McNabb was 5-3 and 43-21 as a starter after 5 seasons.
Brees was 0-1 and 30-33 as a starter after 5 seasons.
***Brady was 9-0 and 48-14 after 5 seasons.
*Montana was 4-1 and 28-21 after 5 seasons.
Ryan is 1-3 and 56-22 after 5 seasons.
**Roethlisberger was 8-2 and 51-20 after 5 seasons.
Rivers was and 33-15 and 3-3 after 5 seasons.
Elway was 4-4 and 46-21-1 after 5 seasons.
Rodgers was 0-1 and 17-15 after 5 years.
*Bradshaw was 4-2 and 32-19 after 5 years.

None of those things for those other QB's mean anything. None of them play for this Ravens team and a record is a reflection of a specific team at a specific time. In some cases, you're not even comparing apples to apples.

Aaron Rodgers sat on the bench for the first 3 years of his career, so comparing Flacco's 5 playing years to Rodgers 2 playing years isn't a good comparison. Compare him to Rodgers first 5 playing years and see the difference then...

Flacco: 1507/2489 60.5% 17,633 Yds 102 TDs 56 INTs 86.3 Passer Rating
Rodgers: 1717/2606 65.9% 21,332 Yds 170 TDs 45 INTs 105.6 Passer Rating

That's with Rodgers playing in 2 fewer games (78) than Flacco (80). Rodgers playoff record in his first 5 playing years is 5-3 with a Super Bowl victory, Super Bowl MVP and league MVP award. Flacco is in no way in the same class as Rodgers.

Trying to compare modern QB's to Montana, Bradshaw or Elway (or any QB from decades ago) is just silly. The league is vastly different now from back then.

I do find it somewhat amusing though that you specified "as a starter" for many of the QB's but when you got to Rodgers, you switched to "after 5 years", knowing that his numbers were badly skewed due to not playing for the forst 3 of those 5 years.

You also said "after 5 years" for Terry Bradshaw, but 5 years for Terry Bradshaw isn't the same as 5 years for today's NFL. 5 seasons at the start of Bradshaws career, assuming he played every game, would be 70 games. 5 season for Flacco would be 80 games.

In order to have the availability of 80 games, Terry Bradshaw would have to play almost all the way through his 6th season (84 games in 6 full seasons). If you go and look, Bradshaw won 2 Super Bowls in those first 6 seasons and made one Pro Bowl.

But again, I don't think you can really compare QBs from so far back to the present day. The game is just too different now, from the number of games played to the rules on the field.

[skippyx]

5 years as a pro is 5 years as a pro.

Flacco has 12 TDs and 2 INTs in his last 6 playoff games.
Those apples hold up to anyone else's apples.

The Flacco Ravens were never the 2000 Ravens.
He never even got a bye with them.

Comparing a 10 year pro and a 12 year pro and an 8 year pro to a 5 year pro is just silly.

The "don't play for the Ravens' comment is an argument for never discussing sports as no one ever plays for the same team.  You should reconsider your support of it.

[VaBeach_Eagle]

skippyx, on 15 January 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

5 years as a pro is 5 years as a pro.

How about comparing playing career to playing career as opposed to bench sitting to playing career? Until you recognize the impropriety of using 3 full seasons of sitting on the bench behind Brett Favre, added to 2 seasons of starting in comparison with 5 full years of starting, nothing else you say means anything and will not be recognized as existing and trying to compare the two things as equal only makes you look foolish.

Compare him to McNabb, fine. Compare him to Manning (either of them), fine. Roethlisberger...  ok. Compare him to any QB that started for all, or the vast majority of their first 5 years, perfect. Use a player that didn't play for 3 of the 5 years and you're just being foolish.

Want to compare him to other QB's? Compare a comparable number of games played. Flacco has 80 games started, get the first 80 games Rodgers played (he only has 78). Get Brady's first 80 games and compare them. Want to step back to 1970? Take Bradshaw's first 80 games and compare those.

[VaBeach_Eagle]

Let's see what happens when we compare actual playing time in an even way, first 5 years as a starter vs. first 5 years as a starter. 2008-2012 for both.

Flacco's first 5 years as a starter (80 games):

2012 Ranked 14th in the league 317/531 59.7% 3817 Yds 22 TDs 10 INTs 87.7 Passer Rating
2011 Ranked 12th in the league 312/542 57.6% 3610 Yds 20 TDs 12 INTs 80.9 Passer Rating
2010 Ranked 10th in the league 306/489 62.6% 3622 Yds 25 TDs 10 INTs 93.6 Passer Rating
2009 Ranked 15th in the league 315/499 63.1% 3613 Yds 21 TDs 12 INTs 88.9 Passer Rating
2008 Ranked 20th in the league 257/428 60.0% 2971 Yds 14 TDs 12 INTs 80.3 Passer Rating

Rodgers first 5 years as a starter (78 games):

2012 Ranked 8th in the league 371/552 67.2% 4,295 Yds 39 TDs 8 INTs 108.0 Passer Rating
2011 Ranked 5th in the league 343/502 68.3% 4,643 Yds 45 TDs 6 INTs 122.5 Passer Rating
2010 Ranked 7th in the league 312/475 65.7% 3,922 Yds 28 TDs 11 INTs 101.2 Passer Rating
2009 Ranked 4th in the league 350/541 64.7% 4,434 Yds 30 TDs 7 INTs 103.2 Passer Rating
2008 Ranked 4th in the league 341/536 63.6% 4,038 Yds 28 TDs 13 INTs 93.8 Passer Rating

As a starter, Flacco has never been above the top 10 in the league. Rodgers has never been below the top 8.
As a starter, Flacco has never thown more than 25 TD passes. Rodgers has never thown fewer than 28.
As a starter, Flacco has never completed more than 63.1% of his passes. Rodgers has never completed fewer than 63.6%. Rodgers worst year is better than Flacco's best.
As a starter, Flacco has never had a passer rating above 93.6. Rodgers has only been below 101.2 once in 5 years (93.8).
As a starter, Flacco has never thrown for more than 3,817 yards. Rodgers worst year was 3,922, his only year below 4,000.
As a starter, Flacco has never thown fewer than 10 INTs in a season. Rodgers has done it 3 of his 5 years starting.
As a Starter, Flacco has never won a Super Bowl (yet). Rodgers won the Super Bowl with the Packers.
As a starter, Flacco has never been Super Bowl MVP. Rodgers won Super Bowl MVP.
As a starter, Flacco has never been NFL MVP. Rodgers has been NFL MVP.
As a starter, Flacco has never been elected to the Pro Bowl. Rodgers has been elected to 3.
As a starter, Flacco has never been an All Pro. Rodgers has been All Pro twice.

I see why you decided not to compare Rodgers and Flacco as "first 5 years as a starter"

[Froggy]

Nerdo3, on 14 January 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

He is not elite, he can't carry a team on his back...

To be honest the offense has carried their defense the majority of the season.

[CharGP02A]

It seems like analysts love to throw that world elite around. To me, only 5 QBs at any one time can be elite. To me there is only 4 right now, that is Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees. To me, the job of the quarterback is to throw the ball. If you're going to primary evaluate QBs by wins-losses then you're doing it wrong. Wins and losses are a team effort. If you're going the W-L route for QBs then you have to do it for all positions and that is just lame in my opinion. Those 4 guys I listed are elite because they throw the ball at a high rate and succeed at it. I also put way more stock into the regular season than the postseason. The postseaon has such a small sample size compared to the regular season and to me, it's extremely unfair to put more of the onus on that. Joe Flacco, to me, is not elite. Look at his numbers. He's never been top 5 in any category.

[f_dallas]

He's a notch or two below the top QBs in the league, but he's young and his legacy isn't written yet.  He's certainly had a very productive start to his career.

Let's say the Ravens get knocked out this week and opted to put the non-exclusive franchise tag on him.  Would teams be willing to put together a contract that the Ravens would have difficulty matching and hand over two 1st round picks for him?

[bumpy93]

pencil face, on 14 January 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO..dude chuck and pray the TD to tie the game...

Thats what a hail-mary is!

Throw it downfeild and hope your WR catches it or you get a PI penalty.

[VaBeach_Eagle]

f_dallas, on 15 January 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Let's say the Ravens get knocked out this week and opted to put the non-exclusive franchise tag on him.  Would teams be willing to put together a contract that the Ravens would have difficulty matching and hand over two 1st round picks for him?

No, I don't believe so. He's an average to slightly above average QB. If Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady was the QB in this scenario, then I could see someone willing to give up 2 firsts. Not for Flacco. In fact, I think someone would be more willing to give up 2 firsts for Eli faster than for Flacco.

[f_dallas]

VaBeach_Eagle, on 15 January 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

No, I don't believe so. He's an average to slightly above average QB. If Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady was the QB in this scenario, then I could see someone willing to give up 2 firsts. Not for Flacco. In fact, I think someone would be more willing to give up 2 firsts for Eli faster than for Flacco.

Maybe that's the definition of elite, then.  If you're in your relative prime and not worth 2 first round picks to a team desperate for a QB, you're not elite.  Brady is 34 or 35 and I'd hand over 2 first round picks for him.

[Eagle Jeff]

Nnamdi Pamdi, on 14 January 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Flacco has been knocking on the door of the "almost elite" category for a while and IMO he is officially there now.  I've got him at the bottom end of that Eli/Roth/Cutler group.

None of those guys are elite.

[VaBeach_Eagle]

f_dallas, on 15 January 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Maybe that's the definition of elite, then.  If you're in your relative prime and not worth 2 first round picks to a team desperate for a QB, you're not elite.  Brady is 34 or 35 and I'd hand over 2 first round picks for him.

I could live with that definition.

Would you give up 2 firsts for Eli in that situation?

[f_dallas]

VaBeach_Eagle, on 15 January 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

I could live with that definition.

Would you give up 2 firsts for Eli in that situation?

It would be really close, but I think I'd say yes.  There are all kinds of qualifiers, of course (if there was a really good QB prospect at #4, for example), but I think it would be worth it.

I'd even consider it with Flacco, given the level of uncertainty the Eagles have at QB right now, but I would expect most teams to pass on that deal.

[Bravens1]

He is not elite but he did show up vs Denver, thanks.

[VaBeach_Eagle]

f_dallas, on 15 January 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

It would be really close, but I think I'd say yes.  There are all kinds of qualifiers, of course (if there was a really good QB prospect at #4, for example), but I think it would be worth it.

I'd even consider it with Flacco, given the level of uncertainty the Eagles have at QB right now, but I would expect most teams to pass on that deal.

I don't know that I would. He's had a great post season career (after his first few), but in the regular season he's been average to above average but not at the top of the pack.