22 replies to this topic

[bleed_eagle_green]

First I want to say... it was a super sad day in Philly when Jim Johnson passed away... the man was AMAZING.
Since his passing the Philly defense has been left searching in the dark for a voice and a leader.

The team has been searching for an individual who had the aggressiveness like Jim on defense.

Well one of Jim's disciples is now searching for a job... Steve Spagnola

Lets face it folks Steve is not a head coach and I have read the reports on him in New Orleans... they cant play his style of
defense down there. The Saints were doomed before the season started with trying to sign Brees, the bounty issues, players
getting suspended and lets not forget the head coach was gone for the year... come on man... they were a ship lost at sea
before the season even started.

I know the reports are that Chip Kelly wants a 3-4 defense... but what is the harm in calling up Spagnola and asking him to talk?

The team doesnt need a nice guy running the defense... they need a hard a**, a teacher, a leader, a vocal presence...
someone who demands excellence!!!!

[KOJO]

First off, it's Spagnuolo. Second, I used to think he was JJ pt. 2 too, until his Ram defenses were nothing special & then he turned in the worst defense in the history of the NFL this year. You can't ignore something like that. It almost makes it seem like what he did in NY was just a fluke.

I'll pass.

[patpikunas]

We need a fresh start and new approach

[CT Eagle]

patpikunas, on 25 January 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

We need a fresh start and new approach

The Ed Donatell isn't the guy either....

[jsdarkstar]

I can ingore what happened in NO given they had no head coach and several defensive players were suspended, etc. etc.

[DaveSpadaro]

I'm shocked somebody would bring up Spags ... I don't have a feel for what the Eagles want to do. So you can name all the names you want. I don't know what Chip is thinking. As we learned from the head coaching hire, the Eagles are keeping things close to the vest

[mjkvol]

KOJO, on 25 January 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

First off, it's Spagnuolo. Second, I used to think he was JJ pt. 2 too, until his Ram defenses were nothing special & then he turned in the worst defense in the history of the NFL this year. You can't ignore something like that. It almost makes it seem like what he did in NY was just a fluke.

I'll pass.

I kind of look at last season with a bit of a grain of salt given the mess down there, but you do have to wonder if his success with the Giants was more a matter of having a monster front 7 at exactly the right time than anything else.

It may or may not have been a fluke, but the last few years have definitely taken some of the bloom off of that rose, and I'd agree that we should just go in a clean, new direction.

I'm not even that crazy about Shurmur being here, as I'd like every last vestige and stink of the last regime out the door (except Duce and Williams, who predated Reid anyway).

[bleed_eagle_green]

So if we go with this new approach... the 3-4... what LBs are going to play for the Eagles?

Ryans came to Philly last year because the Texans were going to run the 3-4 down there and he was not comfortable playing that style.

Look at out roster... we are extremely weak at that position... and now we are going to put 4 of them out there at once? WOW!!! PLEASE HOLD MY HAND LIKE A SMALL CHILD AND EXPLAIN IT TO ME CHAPTER AND VERSE!!!!!

Plus you have 2 other teams switching to the 3-4 scheme as well. It sounds like there could be a shortage at that position this year around the league.

The only thing that comes to mind... you will have to have a few of our DEs switch to play LB... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

[mjkvol]

bleed_eagle_green, on 25 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

So if we go with this new approach... the 3-4... what LBs are going to play for the Eagles?

I don't get all the panic over switching to the 3-4.    

Does anyone seriously believe that this roster will look anything like this by 2014?      If it does, we're in deep trouble as far as rebuilding goes.     2013 is moot - it's a transitional rebuilding year.      We're not winning anything this year, and quite frankly I'd be pissed off if that was the focus of this off season.        We might as well have hired some retread if that was the approach.

Let's get whatever systems we're moving forward with in place, and then accumulate talent to play in those systems over the next 2-3 off seasons.        I'd like to be in a position to see marked improvement and push for a playoff spot in 2014, and then really compete for the playoffs and beyond in 2015 and 2016.

[PoconoDon]

mjkvol, on 25 January 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

I kind of look at last season with a bit of a grain of salt given the mess down there, but you do have to wonder if his success with the Giants was more a matter of having a monster front 7 at exactly the right time than anything else.

It may or may not have been a fluke, but the last few years have definitely taken some of the bloom off of that rose, and I'd agree that we should just go in a clean, new direction.

I'm not even that crazy about Shurmur being here, as I'd like every last vestige and stink of the last regime out the door (except Duce and Williams, who predated Reid anyway).

Amen.....and 100% correct.

As I have always stated, player talent trumps all else.....it doesn't make coaching unimportant, but when your guys can consistently beat the backs out of their guys....that coaching job gets a whole lot easier, if for no other reason than, no matter what is called on any given play, they get it done.

[patpikunas]

bleed_eagle_green, on 25 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

So if we go with this new approach... the 3-4... what LBs are going to play for the Eagles?

Ryans came to Philly last year because the Texans were going to run the 3-4 down there and he was not comfortable playing that style.

Look at out roster... we are extremely weak at that position... and now we are going to put 4 of them out there at once? WOW!!! PLEASE HOLD MY HAND LIKE A SMALL CHILD AND EXPLAIN IT TO ME CHAPTER AND VERSE!!!!!

Plus you have 2 other teams switching to the 3-4 scheme as well. It sounds like there could be a shortage at that position this year around the league.

The only thing that comes to mind... you will have to have a few of our DEs switch to play LB... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

This is more than a 1 season turnaround.... we were 4-12 and while that in itself is a lot to recoved from, look at the all the holes on this roster.

Where do you begin?

Safety?
CB?
OLine?
QB?

If switching to a 3-4 is what we ultimately do, then most likely there will be a vetting process over the next season over who fits into the scheme and who doesn't.

Texans unloaded Ryans when they decided he did not fit the scheme.... it may very well be the case here come next off season.

Point is, this roster as it stands now will be purged over the next 12-18 months... and it should be. The Reid-Banner-Roseman era of the last 5 years was marked by shoddy drafting and even worse FA signings.

It will take a minimum of 2 off seasons to correct the mess of this roster, and thats assuming Howie knows what he is doing, which is no sure thing by any means.

Excited for Chip no doubt.... but this team has a loooong way to go to be competitive again.

[CT Eagle]

DaveSpadaro, on 25 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

. As we learned from the head coaching hire, the Eagles are keeping things close to the vest

Right !  Who knew the Eagles had any interest in Chip....

[patpikunas]

CT Eagle, on 25 January 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Right !  Who knew the Eagles had any interest in Chip....

[mjkvol]

PoconoDon, on 25 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Amen.....and 100% correct.

As I have always stated, player talent trumps all else.....it doesn't make coaching unimportant, but when your guys can consistently beat the backs out of their guys....that coaching job gets a whole lot easier, if for no other reason than, no matter what is called on any given play, they get it done.

You and I will always disagree somewhat on that - obviously, talent is paramount to win championships, but all the talent in the world is worthless without the schemes in place maximizing that talent.      That Giants front 7 never played that way before or after Spags, which indicates to me that while the talent was there, he applied the scheme that maximized it.

Barry Switzer won in Dallas because, yes, there was incredible talent, but more so to me because Jimmy Johnson's assistants, and the system that perfectly maximized that talent, were already in place.      All Switzer had to do was show up, turn on the lights, and stay the hell out of the way - which he managed to do for one year.      The fact that he inherited the last truly great team we'll ever see made that a job a chimp could have handled.

[Highboy]

mjkvol, on 25 January 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

I don't get all the panic over switching to the 3-4.

Does anyone seriously believe that this roster will look anything like this by 2014?   If it does, we're in deep trouble as far as rebuilding goes. 2013 is moot - it's a transitional rebuilding year.   We're not winning anything this year, and quite frankly I'd be pissed off if that was the focus of this off season. We might as well have hired some retread if that was the approach.

Let's get whatever systems we're moving forward with in place, and then accumulate talent to play in those systems over the next 2-3 off seasons. I'd like to be in a position to see marked improvement and push for a playoff spot in 2014, and then really compete for the playoffs and beyond in 2015 and 2016.

People need to get it out of their heads that its an automatic switch to the 3-4 anyway. Chip already stated he's not married to any formation or scheme. Not that I care one way or the other.

[applestillskins]

DaveSpadaro, on 25 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm shocked somebody would bring up Spags ... I don't have a feel for what the Eagles want to do. So you can name all the names you want. I don't know what Chip is thinking. As we learned from the head coaching hire, the Eagles are keeping things close to the vest

Dave I wouldn't mind having Spags back. His defense stunk last year but so did the situation he was in.

[BirdGang45]

No to SpagYOLO.

[PoconoDon]

mjkvol, on 26 January 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

You and I will always disagree somewhat on that - obviously, talent is paramount to win championships, but all the talent in the world is worthless without the schemes in place maximizing that talent.   That Giants front 7 never played that way before or after Spags, which indicates to me that while the talent was there, he applied the scheme that maximized it.

Barry Switzer won in Dallas because, yes, there was incredible talent, but more so to me because Jimmy Johnson's assistants, and the system that perfectly maximized that talent, were already in place.   All Switzer had to do was show up, turn on the lights, and stay the hell out of the way - which he managed to do for one year.   The fact that he inherited the last truly great team we'll ever see made that a job a chimp could have handled.

True, we will, but that's the part of this which I enjoy the most with you and a handful of others....a rational exchange of ideas within the context of a message board.

For me, as you are aware, I firmly believe that great player talent and commitment put a team in the best position to win because of the requisite analysis of the reverse. I do believe that the commitment part is rooted in coaching and is the cornerstone of the tremendous value coaching has...as I said, it's not unimportant, it's merely second on my personal list (1 v.1A).....and here's why.

  I know for a fact, that substandard player talent nullifies great coaching, and no amount of coaching in the world can overcome that problem. Nothing he calls or plans will work as intended, because his guys are just over matched on every single play....and as a fan, it's frustrating to watch a great coach be ineffective, because his guys are unfortunately, facing a much more talented team.

The flip-side of this, is that great player talent actually can overcome substandard coaching, especially where the weakness is just the X's and O's. When a team is supremely talented, it doesn't matter what the coach calls, they find a way to get it done, or they modify the call to something more effective....even if they must do that routinely (Cowboys under Switzer). They can find, and then take a victory from a flawed plan, and sometimes can even make a bad coaching call turn into a great play because they can consistently beat the guy across from them.

While I'll always prefer the combination of great coaching and great player talent, if I have to choose which I believe is more impactful and therefore most necessary to winning, I'll put player talent first, and I respect your opinion if you disagree, I just think the first lesson we learn as children with regard to team sports, including football, is that nothing has a greater impact than picking teams.....and that theme remains true all the way up to and including the NFL. This is why draft weekend is my focus and why I was so incensed over Reid's annual performances there....

IMO, the best way, or at least the first and most important step, to winning in February, is by winning year after year in April.........but that's just me brother.....

[mjkvol]

PoconoDon, on 27 January 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

The flip-side of this, is that great player talent actually can overcome substandard coaching, especially where the weakness is just the X's and O's. When a team is supremely talented, it doesn't matter what the coach calls, they find a way to get it done, or they modify the call to something more effective....even if they must do that routinely (Cowboys under Switzer). They can find, and then take a victory from a flawed plan, and sometimes can even make a bad coaching call turn into a great play because they can consistently beat the guy across from them.

While I'll always prefer the combination of great coaching and great player talent, if I have to choose which I believe is more impactful and therefore most necessary to winning, I'll put player talent first, and I respect your opinion if you disagree, I just think the first lesson we learn as children with regard to team sports, including football, is that nothing has a greater impact than picking teams.....and that theme remains true all the way up to and including the NFL. This is why draft weekend is my focus and why I was so incensed over Reid's annual performances there....

We're this close to being in total agreement.

The bolded part is the only place I beg to differ.     Players don't 'modify' or 'find a way to get things done' in the NFL, Pocono!     They might in the playground, but not at the highest level.    

That Cowboy team didn't have to 'modify' anything because the plan in place was flawless and maximized the incredible talent.     Switzer did nothing more than decide occasionally whether to go for it on 4th down.       The plan was already well in place.

Listen, we both know that great talent is a necessity, but I'll never believe that talent without a proper plan can ever win, while a flawless plan can elevate a group to play at a level no one may have thought possible.

[PoconoDon]

mjkvol, on 27 January 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

We're this close to being in total agreement.

The bolded part is the only place I beg to differ. Players don't 'modify' or 'find a way to get things done' in the NFL, Pocono! They might in the playground, but not at the highest level.

That Cowboy team didn't have to 'modify' anything because the plan in place was flawless and maximized the incredible talent. Switzer did nothing more than decide occasionally whether to go for it on 4th down.    The plan was already well in place.

Listen, we both know that great talent is a necessity, but I'll never believe that talent without a proper plan can ever win, while a flawless plan can elevate a group to play at a level no one may have thought possible.

Yeah they do, they call offensive and defensive audibles. They make reads and call out changes.....and if the coach is a Barry Switzer, it happens often. I remember an interview with Michael Irvin, in which he almost said it plainly, that about 1/2 way through that season the players knew Switzer was a liability.....so they chose to do what they felt was necessary from play to play, to get it done....sometimes it would be his called play...and essentially stating that sometimes they'd scrap that for a better option given the circumstances.

Naturally, it helped that when it came to a head, Jerruh Jones supported the players and Switzer was a lame duck by the about week 12...but on THAT team....the players took over and sure enough, won a Super Bowl in spite of their head coach...not in any way because of him.....even though he was regarded, according to Irvin, as a likable, but over-matched guy in the NFL. I will agree that the assistant coaches were really good, but I suspect that Switzer's headset was turned off for the big game...LOL. ok, maybe it wasn't that bad, but he was bereft of decision making duties, of that I'm sure.

[mjkvol]

PoconoDon, on 27 January 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Yeah they do, they call offensive and defensive audibles. They make reads and call out changes.....

But those audibles and changes were part of the system installed by Jimmy Johnson!        The players weren't 'creating' stuff on the fly or drawing plays in the dirt.

That same talent forced into a system like Reid might install is lucky to win one Super Bowl - Aikman's career would have been substantially shorter and Emmitt Smith would have been just another good back.    They had already won two, and the system was completely ingrained - Switzer only needed to put the thing on autopilot.

[PoconoDon]

mjkvol, on 27 January 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

But those audibles and changes were part of the system installed by Jimmy Johnson!     The players weren't 'creating' stuff on the fly or drawing plays in the dirt.

That same talent forced into a system like Reid might install is lucky to win one Super Bowl - Aikman's career would have been substantially shorter and Emmitt Smith would have been just another good back. They had already won two, and the system was completely ingrained - Switzer only needed to put the thing on autopilot.

I never suggested that they were.

I agree that Jimmy Johnson was a very good coach and tailored his system to maximize the effectiveness of his team, which was a great team. I also agree that what the players relied on, was likely what Johnson had previously installed. It's just that when Switzer tried to tweak things his own way, and he did, those tweaks became problems, so the players ignored his stuff as much as possible, and found success on their own.

I also agree that if Reid had been their coach, they may not have won any championships....he would have needed a team even more dominant than those guys were....which is why I beat the drum for better talent for years and years.

At the end of the day, I put player talent at #1 and coaching at 1A because in watching the NFL, I have witnessed great players win it all in spite of bad coaching....I have never witnesses great coaching win it all in spite of bad players. Teams with bad players don't get there.

Again, the best case scenario is a combination of great coaching and great players all committed to winning, and I hope this new era of Eagles football is just that.

Well, that's just my take on it, and why I think it's true.

[E v 2.0]

Even Spags 2007 "super bowl" defense with the Giants was 17th.

The guy's never prosided over a top ten defense.

Just say no.