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When will somebody say the Emperor Has No Clothes?


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#1 pgcd3

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:48 PM

Seems like our organization with the corporate climbing weasel Howie Roseman as GM with never be more than laughingstock failure. He's not interested in building a good team just staying out of the way of any decisions that might reflect on him. That's no way to run a team. Would Ozzie Newsome still be deciding on Mike Vick and hire Bill Davis? It's a joke. You can't take a college coach and team him up with a me before team GM and expect good football decisions to be made.

When will Roseman be fired?

#2 Regal

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:04 PM

Never. We are cursed!

#3 pgcd3

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:05 PM

Never. We are cursed!


I know. Just venting. Jeff Lurie seems to be attracted to hanging with weasels like Banner and now Roseman.

#4 Runtherock

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:14 PM

I have no reason to believe Chip Kelly would take a job where he did not have final say on his coaching staff. I completely understand why Chip might want to actually see Vick play with his own eyes, or why he and Howie might think taking their time and considering all options is a good idea. By all account Chip has a brilliant football mind, maybe we could chill out a tad before jumping. Maybe.

#5 pgcd3

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:17 PM

I have no reason to believe Chip Kelly would take a job where he did not have final say on his coaching staff. I completely understand why Chip might want to actually see Vick play with his own eyes, or why he and Howie might think taking their time and considering all options is a good idea.


As an owner or as a GM you MUST realize how Vick's 'talent' has already lured many coaches into ruin. You absolutely must be a stop to it. Lurie is an absolute fool for not stepping in but that's his losing hallmark.

I know Chip has final say as did Reid but that doesn't mean you can't get good advice when people in the FO and that certainly doesn't appear to be the case under Roseman

#6 Runtherock

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:27 PM

As an owner or as a GM you MUST realize how Vick's 'talent' has already lured many coaches into ruin. You absolutely must be a stop to it. Lurie is an absolute fool for not stepping in but that's his losing hallmark.

I know Chip has final say as did Reid but that doesn't mean you can't get good advice when people in the FO and that certainly doesn't appear to be the case under Roseman

Maybe they want to investigate whether they can trade Vick, or maybe they don't think Foles is the answer, or maybe they don't like the Qbs in the draft, don't think they can land Alex Smith, and think they're future QB is in next year's draft. Maybe they're thinking of buying time in year one with Vick/Foles/Dixon until they can get the guy in here they really want. Maybe its all of that or none of that, maybe they just need more time.

#7 Procus

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:31 PM

Maybe they want to investigate whether they can trade Vick, or maybe they don't think Foles is the answer, or maybe they don't like the Qbs in the draft, don't think they can land Alex Smith, and think they're future QB is in next year's draft. Maybe they're thinking of buying time in year one with Vick/Foles/Dixon until they can get the guy in here they really want. Maybe its all of that or none of that, maybe they just need more time.


To me, that's the only excuse for the Davis hiring. The only thing that makes sense to me would bring him in for a year or 2 to transition to a 3-4 and then replace him with a competent DC.

#8 pgcd3

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:32 PM

Maybe they want to investigate whether they can trade Vick, or maybe they don't think Foles is the answer, or maybe they don't like the Qbs in the draft, don't think they can land Alex Smith, and think they're future QB is in next year's draft. Maybe they're thinking of buying time in year one with Vick/Foles/Dixon until they can get the guy in here they really want. Maybe its all of that or none of that, maybe they just need more time.


If they can trade Vick and his contract I'll be impressed. Otherwise it makes no sense to a 33-yr old declining Vick. He won't make it 8 games anyway.

To me, that's the only excuse for the Davis hiring. The only thing that makes sense to me would bring him in for a year or 2 to transition to a 3-4 and then replace him with a competent DC.


Right keep Vick have Davis as DC and get a franchise QB with the top pick in the 2014 draft. Kelly is a genius

#9 Runtherock

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:36 PM

To me, that's the only excuse for the Davis hiring. The only thing that makes sense to me would bring him in for a year or 2 to transition to a 3-4 and then replace him with a competent DC.

Good linebacker coach, DRC made a Pro Bowl under him. Perhaps they've evaluated his two stints as a DC in detail and concluded his poor defenses were not as a result of poor coaching and schemes as much as poor personnel. Not my first pick but I do not have one of the brightest minds in football, Chip Kelly does. I think I'll trust him for a bit.

#10 pgcd3

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:40 PM


Good linebacker coach, DRC made a Pro Bowl under him. Perhaps they've evaluated his two stints as a DC in detail and concluded his poor defenses were not as a result of poor coaching and schemes as much as poor personnel. Not my first pick but I do not have one of the brightest minds in football, Chip Kelly does. I think I'll trust him for a bit.


The AZ defense certainly seemed to do a lot better once he was replaced with Ray Horton

#11 E v 2.0

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:55 PM

You guys need to read up on the 4-3 under hybrid. It's similar to what Gus and Pete ran in Seattle and may very well be what chip is looking for.

(I completely agree that keeping Vick is a travesty though)

#12 pgcd3

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:19 PM

You guys need to read up on the 4-3 under hybrid. It's similar to what Gus and Pete ran in Seattle and may very well be what chip is looking for.

(I completely agree that keeping Vick is a travesty though)


I read up. It sounds great. My problem is with the results Davis got when he himself coached it.

#13 Runtherock

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:19 PM

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The AZ defense certainly seemed to do a lot better once he was replaced with Ray Horton

Don't disagree with that for a moment. In many ways its a head scratcher for me too, but as we've discussed elsewhere, I think Chip has a right to make decisions and then have them play out before we go nuts.

#14 pgcd3

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:02 PM

Don't disagree with that for a moment. In many ways its a head scratcher for me too, but as we've discussed elsewhere, I think Chip has a right to make decisions and then have them play out before we go nuts.


It's the day of a highly questionable hire. We'll go nuts for a few days. Then we'll focus on the draft and go nuts again. Then we see how it actually plays out. Unfortunately it's been playing out to our worst fears for the past few years

#15 CT Eagle

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:01 PM

I have no reason to believe Chip Kelly would take a job where he did not have final say on his coaching staff.

"Uh Howie, I don't know a good DC that wants this job." (Chip)
"Shurmer told me that Billy Davis is good" (Howie)
"Why did we hire Shurmer again ? He is a WCO guy and I am not interested in that" (Chip)
"Big Red and M Dog told me he is legit" (Howie)
"So you think we should hire another coach from the Browns...I just don't ....Davis' track record is garbage.."(Chip)
"Look, we struck out on our top 3 choices, I don't know where else to turn" (Howie)
"I hope this works out or I am going back to college....." (Chip)

#16 slick1234

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:20 AM

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

#17 E v 2.0

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:28 AM

It's the day of a highly questionable hire. We'll go nuts for a few days. Then we'll focus on the draft and go nuts again. Then we see how it actually plays out. Unfortunately it's been playing out to our worst fears for the past few years

im not saying anyone should be happy about the hire. I'm certainly underwhelmed. At the same time I don't think Howie is as clueless as you do and I certainly don't think Chip is an idiot. He obviously saw something in this guy.

A few well respected NFL guys like the hire. That doesn't mean a ton but it at least shows there are two sides to it. He's the coach now. So hopefully this new 4-3 under scheme is exciting and works out. There's definitely potential there with the right players. The reason I brought up Sea was to show there could be success. It's possible. I don't know of i would say it was likely but I wouldn't say it was unlikely either. Sometimes defenses suck just because. JJs 2005 defense was terrible and he was great. Juan's first yr defense started out awful but then was really good for 8 straight games (including the end of 2011)

Who knows? No reason to freak out. Jmo

#18 pgcd3

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:59 AM

The hiring of the staff was the first real test for chip and I think it's fair to say its yielded very disappointing results on paper. Obviously we won't know how it plays out for a while. Evaluating Davis this year will be difficult as he's transitioning a bad group to a new defense. To be honest if the team sucks and we can get a franchise QB in the 2014 draft that might be the best long term result

#19 mjkvol

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

im not saying anyone should be happy about the hire. I'm certainly underwhelmed. At the same time I don't think Howie is as clueless as you do and I certainly don't think Chip is an idiot. He obviously saw something in this guy.

A few well respected NFL guys like the hire. That doesn't mean a ton but it at least shows there are two sides to it. He's the coach now. So hopefully this new 4-3 under scheme is exciting and works out. There's definitely potential there with the right players. The reason I brought up Sea was to show there could be success. It's possible. I don't know of i would say it was likely but I wouldn't say it was unlikely either. Sometimes defenses suck just because. JJs 2005 defense was terrible and he was great. Juan's first yr defense started out awful but then was really good for 8 straight games (including the end of 2011)

Who knows? No reason to freak out. Jmo


I absolutely agree. It's clearly not a hire we can get excited about this minute, but one reason I wanted Bradley was the idea that he'd bring Carroll's 4-3 Under here. If that's what Davis is going to run, great - my main concern is that defense requires, above all else, physical corners and a strong overrall secondary. Needless to say, we don't have anything approaching that now, and it opens up the possibility of Milliner being the 1st pick. We could probably trade back a few spots and still get him.

As you said, it's way premature to freak out. Kelly and Roseman are in the hot, burning spotlight right now, and I don't think either guy is an idiot or willing to cut their own throat for the sake of making a hire. Here's the thing - this is a 2-3 year rebuild, minimum, and looking at it any other way is beyond foolish.

#20 Procus

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:58 PM

I have no reason to believe Chip Kelly would take a job where he did not have final say on his coaching staff. I completely understand why Chip might want to actually see Vick play with his own eyes, or why he and Howie might think taking their time and considering all options is a good idea. By all account Chip has a brilliant football mind, maybe we could chill out a tad before jumping. Maybe.


You laid into Pat Shurmur pretty good when he was hired by the Browns. Something about being part of the ol boys club - or similar to that effect because Fritz is his uncle. Why no similar admonition about Billy Davis and his dad Bill Davis, former exec with the Eagles and Browns?

#21 eagles nut

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:46 PM

Seems like our organization with the corporate climbing weasel Howie Roseman as GM with never be more than laughingstock failure. He's not interested in building a good team just staying out of the way of any decisions that might reflect on him. That's no way to run a team. Would Ozzie Newsome still be deciding on Mike Vick and hire Bill Davis? It's a joke. You can't take a college coach and team him up with a me before team GM and expect good football decisions to be made.

When will Roseman be fired?


Give it a rest dude. Time will tell on Roseman but it's pointless and quite frankly stupid of you to be making posts about Roseman being a corporate weasel when you have no proof of that. There's no way of having any intelligent discussion when the basis of your topic is a narrative that you're making up.

#22 PoconoDon

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:27 AM

To me, that's the only excuse for the Davis hiring. The only thing that makes sense to me would bring him in for a year or 2 to transition to a 3-4 and then replace him with a competent DC.


Hasn't that been Billy Davis' career path to date? He shows up, sets things up, and is gone to the next rebuild project after a couple seasons?

#23 pgcd3

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 09:41 AM

Give it a rest dude. Time will tell on Roseman but it's pointless and quite frankly stupid of you to be making posts about Roseman being a corporate weasel when you have no proof of that. There's no way of having any intelligent discussion when the basis of your topic is a narrative that you're making up.


I actually have heard from someone who has worked with him and then another guy here heard the exact same thing from a different source that worked with him. It's not a coincidence that the eagles beat guys said Banner, Licht & likely Heckert & Grigson weren't saying nice things. Banner is a weasel too but Roseman's bad reputation is fairly consistent out there.

Look at Roseman's advancement everyone above him magically disappeared from the organization. Then as GM he gets credited for aggressive moves his first 2 years and then when things fall apart his name is nowhere to be seen when the blame is laid. You couldn't draw a clearer picture of a corporate weasel.

#24 PoconoDon

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:46 PM

Howie Roseman is now, the man. He has NO insulation and HIS decisions will be scrutinized without any ability to shift the blame to anyone else. I like that a lot. It's his time to rise or to fall....so with that in mind, ......here's his new theme song:




#25 mjkvol

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:41 PM

Howie Roseman is now, the man. He has NO insulation and HIS decisions will be scrutinized without any ability to shift the blame to anyone else.


Says it all.

#26 CT Eagle

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:05 PM

]

Howie Roseman is now, the man. He has NO insulation and HIS decisions will be scrutinized without any ability to shift the blame to anyone else. I like that a lot. It's his time to rise or to fall. Obviously you have to keep in mind that he has a 5 year contract and may not be held accountable for Chip Kelly's performance as HC and all of the coaches (specifically Billy Davis) that were hired.

Fixed

#27 PoconoDon

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:49 PM

CT,

Howie will be held responsible for player acquisition. Kelly will clearly tell him what type of player he wants at positions x,y,z, then it's on Howie to deliver....we're gonna see if he can. if not, that's on him. If he keeps bringing in the Kurt Coleman's of the world, he can't hide....from the public that is. Now will Lurie give him the axe? probably not soon, but the truth of whether or not he's a top GM talent will be laid bare for all to see, that's my point.

#28 CT Eagle

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:56 PM

CT,

Howie will be held responsible for player acquisition. Kelly will clearly tell him what type of player he wants at positions x,y,z, then it's on Howie to deliver....we're gonna see if he can. if not, that's on him. If he keeps bringing in the Kurt Coleman's of the world, he can't hide....from the public that is. Now will Lurie give him the axe? probably not soon, but the truth of whether or not he's a top GM talent will be laid bare for all to see, that's my point.

I agree with you but it isn't quite so simple or transparent. Clearly there will be the 1st day draft picks and FAs that will be scrutinized. However, the players need to be coached and the coaches need to be able to hold up their end of the bargain. What you need are coaches that can get the most out of their players. There is a ton of talent in the NFL that is never fully realized or plain wasted because of coaching. They already hired their first patsy as DC. If you aren't a good coach it is hard for the players to bail you out.