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GorillaSam

D Vermeil is ON THE MONEY!

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It's possible. Have you ever seen an NFL walkthrough? I've seen high school walkthrough and college walkthroughs...they were both roughly the same. Maybe the pros are different, but I'm not sure they are. Either way, it seems like you're making assumptions here and not basing your opinion on any fact or experience. That's not a slam or anything, but just a general rush to judgement I'm seeing from some people on this issue.

People are saying "OMG! They taped a walk through! They knew the plays!" without ever seeing a walkthrough or really knowing what one is, on top of the fact that the tape still doesn;t exist and the person claiming he has it hardly seems credible.

As far as what can or cannot be gained, this is about an attempt to not leave a single stone unturned by the Patriots. It's the way they operate in every facet of the game.

If they even did it, I'm saying

Warner seems to think taping a walkthrough is a big deal. That's what leads me to the assumption that it involves more then just standing around sipping gatorade.

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Warner seems to think taping a walkthrough is a big deal. That's what leads me to the assumption that it involves more then just standing around sipping gatorade.

And Vermeil thought it wasn't.

I didn't hear or read Warner's quotes on this, by the way.

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As far as what can or cannot be gained, this is about an attempt to not leave a single stone unturned by the Patriots. It's the way they operate in every facet of the game.

And if that means cheating, so be it! :lol:

Again, during the walk through, the Ram's go through their designed offensive and defensive schemes for the superbowl. The new offensive plays, blocking schemes, blitz schemes, and coverages that had never been seen before that superbowl, were supposively intercepted by the patriots before the game.

You don't think it would be invaluable to know the newly designed offensive and defensive schemes when deciding how to combat the Rams?

I do.

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And Vermeil thought it wasn't.

I didn't hear or read Warner's quotes on this, by the way.

He requested an investigation into the claim.

Anyway, what the hell does Vermiel or Madden matter at all? They weren't even there and have no idea what the Rams did.

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He requested an investigation into the claim.

Anyway, what the hell does Vermiel or Madden matter at all? They weren't even there and have no idea what the Rams did.

Vermeil ran that teams for years, gave Martz his job, built the roster from scratch, and was only gone for 11 months before this "potential issue" occurred. I'm sure he, of all people, had a good idea of what a Rams walkthrough was all about.

If Warner really did request an investigation, that's sad, but it's his opinion. I think he's still in denial that loss happened.

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Ok, and let's say that one of the plays in the red zone the Patriots knew and it prevented a TD and forced a fieldgoal instead. Not knowing that play would have resulted in a 21-20 Rams victory. Knowing just one play is in fact that big.

In that Super Bowl, the Rams got their lone FG in the first half. It was actually the opening score of the game. Both Rams TDs came in the 4th quarter, a 2 yard run by Warner, and a 26 yard pass to Proehl. I tried to find a play by play log, but a Google search didn't give me anything for that game. However, the box score shows no 4th down attempts (they did attempt one fourth down and failed, but there was a penalty that gave the Rams an automatic first, which was 2 plays before Warner scored), and I don't recall any missed FGs, so there's nothing to really indicate the Rams even made it to the Redzone outside of their one scoring drive by Warner. That being said, if the Pats did in fact tape their final walkthrough, which has yet to be proven, it clearly didn't give them any help.

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I'm 308 pounds thank you very much.

Damn! Time to hit that treadmill and a salad. Unless of course you are 7' 7".

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In that Super Bowl, the Rams got their lone FG in the first half. It was actually the opening score of the game. Both Rams TDs came in the 4th quarter, a 2 yard run by Warner, and a 26 yard pass to Proehl. I tried to find a play by play log, but a Google search didn't give me anything for that game. However, the box score shows no 4th down attempts (they did attempt one fourth down and failed, but there was a penalty that gave the Rams an automatic first, which was 2 plays before Warner scored), and I don't recall any missed FGs, so there's nothing to really indicate the Rams even made it to the Redzone outside of their one scoring drive by Warner. That being said, if the Pats did in fact tape their final walkthrough, which has yet to be proven, it clearly didn't give them any help.

Somebody earlier said that the Rams had two trips in the redzone netting 10 points. My argument is that possibly knowing the redzone plays prevented a TD during one drive. Hence the 21-20 score instead of 20-17.

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Vermeil ran that teams for years, gave Martz his job, built the roster from scratch, and was only gone for 11 months before this "potential issue" occurred. I'm sure he, of all people, had a good idea of what a Rams walkthrough was all about.

If Warner really did request an investigation, that's sad, but it's his opinion. I think he's still in denial that loss happened.

Is it impossible to think that Martz had the routes run step for step but not at full speed? If that's the case then how can you not think that would be beneficial to the Patriots?

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Football coaches get it. 120 lb. fantasy football dorks don't. This is a non-issue.

They shouldn't have recorded anything, but it's a minor infraction among real football people.

Is there a man out there that weighs 120lbs?.... :wacko:

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God, why are people listening to media tools fishing for stories instead of Coaches like Vermeil and Madden who have both said THE SAME EXACT THING.

I haven't heard ONE coach analyst come out and rip the Patriots for Spygate.

America is SO NAIVE to believe this incident is limited to the Patriots.

heck, Matt Walsh was hired by PETE CARROL in 1998! Yet nobody talks about that...

I guess Belichick's name is just easier to modify into some sort of cheating pun...clever...

Comment #1: B.S.

Comment #2: B.S.

Comment #3: B.S.

The fact is that whether it has been going on or not for ever doesn't matter. The league made it an illegal act just about 8 years ago and therefore the Patriots are alone on the issue. So far they are the only one's who got caught!

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Vermeil ran that teams for years, gave Martz his job, built the roster from scratch, and was only gone for 11 months before this "potential issue" occurred. I'm sure he, of all people, had a good idea of what a Rams walkthrough was all about.

If Warner really did request an investigation, that's sad, but it's his opinion. I think he's still in denial that loss happened.

Didnt Vermil retire right after their Super Bowl over Tennessee? So itd have been 23 months since he was last with them. I think the next season after their Super Bowl win they were the victim of the first playoff win in the Saints history with Martz calling the shots.

In that Super Bowl, the Rams got their lone FG in the first half. It was actually the opening score of the game. Both Rams TDs came in the 4th quarter, a 2 yard run by Warner, and a 26 yard pass to Proehl. I tried to find a play by play log, but a Google search didn't give me anything for that game. However, the box score shows no 4th down attempts (they did attempt one fourth down and failed, but there was a penalty that gave the Rams an automatic first, which was 2 plays before Warner scored), and I don't recall any missed FGs, so there's nothing to really indicate the Rams even made it to the Redzone outside of their one scoring drive by Warner. That being said, if the Pats did in fact tape their final walkthrough, which has yet to be proven, it clearly didn't give them any help.

If you look at the quote i posted from the espn article about the alleged taping from that super bowl, it said that the play they scored the touchdown on was a pay they didnt do during the walkthrough. It also went to turnover on downs on that series with the plays they practiced and the rams got a holding call that allowed them to retain the ball. So from what Ive seen it seems like it could have helped them especially since the pats were stopping their new plays cold, while their touchdown came off a play the pats were able to record at the walkthrough.

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Didnt Vermil retire right after their Super Bowl over Tennessee? So itd have been 23 months since he was last with them. I think the next season after their Super Bowl win they were the victim of the first playoff win in the Saints history with Martz calling the shots.

If you look at the quote i posted from the espn article about the alleged taping from that super bowl, it said that the play they scored the touchdown on was a pay they didnt do during the walkthrough. It also went to turnover on downs on that series with the plays they practiced and the rams got a holding call that allowed them to retain the ball. So from what Ive seen it seems like it could have helped them especially since the pats were stopping their new plays cold, while their touchdown came off a play the pats were able to record at the walkthrough.

Yes on Vermeil. I forgot they didn't go back to back in Super Bowl appearances, but my point remains. He's not just some bystander who doesn't know how the Rams do things.

On the walkthrough, the Rams scored on a QB sneak...a play they ran just like any other team very once in a while they needed short yardage for a first down or TD. This isn't some revolutionary trick play the Rams sneaked in there and Patriots couldn't have seen coming. It was a simple play for a 1 yard TD. I wouldn't consider that evidence of anything.

I think this is a massive witch hunt and there is a lot of wild speculation. I think there is also far, far, far too much importance being put on the rules that were actually broken.

This is a media and fan obsession...the NFL and NFL people know it deserves punishment, but also realize it's not a big deal.

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come on! If it doesn't help anything, why would Belichek risk everything for a worthless peak. I have to listen to all this "everybody's doing it" crap up here in New England. It's a ridiculous excuse.

Someone has to slap them or they'll keep doing it. Just like the signal calling...the NFL put out a memo telling people that it's not gonna be tolerated anymore and they'll be consequences if you do it...Week one, the Patriots do it vs. the jets. Belicek and his ilk need to be slapped around before they fly right.

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come on! If it doesn't help anything, why would Belichek risk everything for a worthless peak. I have to listen to all this "everybody's doing it" crap up here in New England. It's a ridiculous excuse.

Someone has to slap them or they'll keep doing it. Just like the signal calling...the NFL put out a memo telling people that it's not gonna be tolerated anymore and they'll be consequences if you do it...Week one, the Patriots do it vs. the jets. Belicek and his ilk need to be slapped around before they fly right.

Isn't that really the point?

They were punished for their crime and people can't seem to let it go.

EDIT: Plus, consider this with the "everyone's doing it" argument. Why does Reid cover his mouth every time when calling in a play? Why do the Eagles defensive coaches go to great lengths to shield their signals when sending them in? Why do they change defensive signals very week, sometimes in the middle of a game?

Why would they go to all those lengths if there is only one or two teams attempting to pick up signals?

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What I don't get is, if doesn't really help a team as many people seem to be arguing, why would the Patriots waste the time and effort and risk potentially severe sanctions from the league?

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What I don't get is, if doesn't really help a team as many people seem to be arguing, why would the Patriots waste the time and effort and risk potentially severe sanctions from the league?

I think the mantra of the Patriots from top to bottom is do everything you can to win and on some levels, "if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying".

Why do they list Brady on the injury report as probable every single week when he's never missed a game due to injury? I think that's a good example of how they do things.

Everyone tries to steal signals because it CAN be an advantage. The Patriots videotaped them, as well. Why did they do it? I think the idea was absolutely to gain another advantage, but I also think it's highly questionable how much of an advantage that is over stealing signals the old fashioned way. The point, if I'm inside the mind of Belichick is: whether or not it actually helps them, they are leaving one avenue for a potential advantage on the table if they DO NOT tape.

Plus, every team knew they were doing it or at least heard the rumors. It could have been used as a psychological advantage, too.

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my point is, the scandal is WAAAAY overrated an I don't want to see it ruin the game...bringing congress in it is the first step to disaster

I dont believe it for a second. If it doesnt make a difference why do they go to such lengths to do it.

And why is the rule so specific?

These comments from Shanahan and Madden and Vermeil is nothing but the coaching community circling the wagons and defending their own. They know it is an illegal advantage and that many of their collegues are guilty....prolly none more than BB.

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I dont believe it for a second. If it doesnt make a difference why do they go to such lengths to do it.

And why is the rule so specific?

These comments from Shanahan and Madden and Vermeil is nothing but the coaching community circling the wagons and defending their own. They know it is an illegal advantage and that many of their collegues are guilty....prolly none more than BB.

The reason the rule is so specific is as soon as you start involving technology, the slope become slippery. As long as the work is in the hands of human eyes and traditional measures, the potential results are limited.

Once you start involving video, you can get into computer programs designed to break the codes and you end up with the potential for a more serious problem.

As far as "going to great lengths", not really. They just had a guy hold a video camera and they thought the additional warnin gin the off-season was clearly just white noise. They found out it wasn't the hard way and they were dealt with.

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No you don't "GET" it... If the Patriots Actually did what Roger Goodell thinks they might have done... It wasnt' within his Jurisdiction to be JUDGE JURY and EXECUTIONER.

that's the part nobody seems to comprehend.. it's really really funny stuff.

BAM!

You hit the nail on the head.

And how did we get into this mess? Well, day one in office Goodell went on his INQUISITION, and he tried every pplayer as JUDGE, JURY, AND EXECUTIONER and the ENTIRE LEAGUE AND ITS FANS APPLAUDED this completely totalitarian and undemocratic form of governance from our new commisioner.

The Players Union licked Goodell's feet and ate the scraps from his table. The self-righteous fans waived their pitchforks at the "hoodlums" and the precedent was SET...Goodell didnt have to answer to ANYBODY.

And now the league has a federal investigation at its feet.

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You guys are hilarious.

What has Goodell done wrong again? Trying to clean up the players acts so they didn't go down the road of the NBA (losing mainstream fans...the ones who spend MONEY and allow the league to grow, while forcing the players to become better role models)?

Please.

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People are giving the story the wrong twist. If they want to succeed in thsi fight, it can't be about blemishing the pats wins, it has to be solely about blackening the name of Billichik and trying to get him out of the world of football.

The fact is that it's incredibly doubtful that the videotape helped at all against the rams:

1 - that portion of the practice was only about the rams redzone plays

2 - the pats defense kept them out of the redzone until the fourth quarter

3 - the rams had, at least I recall from an article, 2 redzone trips and came away with 10 points.

4 - whatever the pats got on the redzone plays didn't seem to help when the rams got down there

Thats an excellent point...for the opposite argument. 2 redzone trips...10 pts. If the Patriots forced a field goal instead of a TD in the Red Zone thanks to the video, then they WON THE SB thanks to the Video, because the Rams would have won with thise 4 extar pts.

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You guys are hilarious.

What has Goodell done wrong again? Trying to clean up the players acts so they didn't go down the road of the NBA (losing mainstream fans...the ones who spend MONEY and allow the league to grow, while forcing the players to become better role models)?

Please.

You still dont get it.

The point is how did Goodell become the sole referee of judgement, the lone Jury to all its problems, and the ultimate judge to all its punishments for the NFL?

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You still dont get it.

The point is how did Goodell become the sole referee of judgement, the lone Jury to all its problems, and the ultimate judge to all its punishments for the NFL?

Do you think he did the right things with the players who were involved in that type of behavior or not? Simple question.

Further, who should be the judge, jury, and executioner for players in the NFL if not the commissioner?

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