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GorillaSam

D Vermeil is ON THE MONEY!

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Thats an excellent point...for the opposite argument. 2 redzone trips...10 pts. If the Patriots forced a field goal instead of a TD in the Red Zone thanks to the video, then they WON THE SB thanks to the Video, because the Rams would have won with thise 4 extar pts.

According to everything I found, they had 1 trip into the red zone and scored a TD.

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Isn't that really the point?

They were punished for their crime and people can't seem to let it go.

EDIT: Plus, consider this with the "everyone's doing it" argument. Why does Reid cover his mouth every time when calling in a play? Why do the Eagles defensive coaches go to great lengths to shield their signals when sending them in? Why do they change defensive signals very week, sometimes in the middle of a game?

Why would they go to all those lengths if there is only one or two teams attempting to pick up signals?

1. People aren't letting it go because no one really knows to what extent this goes...mostly because the evidence wasn't made public and then it was destroyed.

2. New allegations have emerged.

3. The Eagles and other coaching staff cover their mouths because stealing signals is not illegal. Using videotape to do it is.

F Dallas, wrong is wrong no matter how many people are doing the wrong. You are probably right about many teams doing it, it is probably why Goodell tried to wrap this up so neatly, he tried to nip it in the bud. The NFL should get out in front of this, beef up security or whatever and treat this like they would a steroid allegation.

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1. People aren't letting it go because no one really knows to what extent this goes...mostly because the evidence wasn't made public and then it was destroyed.

2. New allegations have emerged.

3. The Eagles and other coaching staff cover their mouths because stealing signals is not illegal. Using videotape to do it is.

F Dallas, wrong is wrong no matter how many people are doing the wrong. You are probably right about many teams doing it, it is probably why Goodell tried to wrap this up so neatly, he tried to nip it in the bud. The NFL should get out in front of this, beef up security or whatever and treat this like they would a steroid allegation.

I guess where our opinions differ really comes down to whether or not Goodell's behavior was suspicious. Yeah, we don't know what was on the tapes, but the NFL never releases information like this to the public (thought stuff is sometimes secretly leaked).

I think their philosophy was essentially "we know what they did. We confiscated/destroyed the tapes. We gave them the stiffest penalty in NFL history as a precident that this type of things will not be tolerated".

Goodell also left it open at the time by saying they would revisit the penalty if new evidence came to light. If this new allegation has any legs (the guy said he has a video, so it should be pretty easy to prove whether or not he does), I'm sure the NFL will issue further punishment.

My whole point is what has the NFL done to raise all these conspiracy theories? What have they done to warrant the interest of the Senate?

They busted someone, they destroyed the illegal material, they punished the team/coach, and they said they'd revisit the penalty if more evidence comes to light.

Aren't we getting a little too cynical here looking for some kind of cover-up and goverment intervention?

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well in my opinion, destroying the tapes seemed weird. In fact, i wasn't even that interested till i heard that. Let's say a tape comes out that leads people to believe the patriots did more of this stuff...well then the penalty should be stiffer because there is a second offense. Well in that case you might have to refer to the original evidence. But now you can't.

That's why evidence in investigations should be preserved.

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Somebody earlier said that the Rams had two trips in the redzone netting 10 points. My argument is that possibly knowing the redzone plays prevented a TD during one drive. Hence the 21-20 score instead of 20-17.

I understand your hypothetical point. I was just going by what actually happened.

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well in my opinion, destroying the tapes seemed weird. In fact, i wasn't even that interested till i heard that. Let's say a tape comes out that leads people to believe the patriots did more of this stuff...well then the penalty should be stiffer because there is a second offense. Well in that case you might have to refer to the original evidence. But now you can't.

That's why evidence in investigations should be preserved.

I don't know if destroying the tapes was weird or not.

There's no precindent here and I can't fathom what the NFL had to gain by initiating a cover up on behalf of the Patriots. Everyone hates them for their winning ways and the league had nothing to gain by doing them a solid, IMO.

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I don't know if destroying the tapes was weird or not.

There's no precindent here and I can't fathom what the NFL had to gain by initiating a cover up on behalf of the Patriots. Everyone hates them for their winning ways and the league had nothing to gain by doing them a solid, IMO.

Why destroy the tapes? Is there a good reason?

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Didnt Vermil retire right after their Super Bowl over Tennessee? So itd have been 23 months since he was last with them. I think the next season after their Super Bowl win they were the victim of the first playoff win in the Saints history with Martz calling the shots.

If you look at the quote i posted from the espn article about the alleged taping from that super bowl, it said that the play they scored the touchdown on was a pay they didnt do during the walkthrough. It also went to turnover on downs on that series with the plays they practiced and the rams got a holding call that allowed them to retain the ball. So from what Ive seen it seems like it could have helped them especially since the pats were stopping their new plays cold, while their touchdown came off a play the pats were able to record at the walkthrough.

Your point is valid, but it still remains speculation, since no one yet knows the truth of them taping the walk through. Yes they did stop them on 4 plays, but do we know for sure that the plays they used in the game were all new plays? Could some of them have been old plays? There is just know way to know right now, barring an admission of guilt, if their getting stopped was a product of knowing the play, or just poor execution on the Rams part, or just great defensive plays by the Pats.

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Your point is valid, but it still remains speculation, since no one yet knows the truth of them taping the walk through. Yes they did stop them on 4 plays, but do we know for sure that the plays they used in the game were all new plays? Could some of them have been old plays? There is just know way to know right now, barring an admission of guilt, if their getting stopped was a product of knowing the play, or just poor execution on the Rams part, or just great defensive plays by the Pats.

And these are the questions that will be asked for ever because of what the Patriots were caught doing and the uncertainty of what those tapes actually had on them. This will never end.

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Why destroy the tapes? Is there a good reason?

The reason I thought I read recently is he didn't want the information leaked on the tapes and when some info stated to leak out, they destroyed them. They probably didn't want the media OR any other teams to get their hands on whatever was there. All the leaks about upcoming schedules, players in the drug program, etc. come from the commissioners office...if the notebooks (in particular) ended up with another team or on the Smoking Gun, they would have looked like idiots.

Does the NFL have a huge safe they store this type of material in? This is an office like any other office...it;s not a police station fitted with an evidence locker.

They looked at the stuff, recorded all of it, it matched what the Patriots said they had, they told them they were going to be in deeper trouble if they learned of more stuff, and they destroyed it so it wouldn't be leaked to press or other teams.

It doesn't sound that crazy to me. They probably send stuff out daily to be incinerated and just threw it in the burn box when they were done with it.

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The reason I thought I read recently is he didn't want the information leaked on the tapes and when some info stated to leak out, they destroyed them. They probably didn't want the media OR any other teams to get their hands on whatever was there. All the leaks about upcoming schedules, players in the drug program, etc. come from the commissioners office...if the notebooks (in particular) ended up with another team or on the Smoking Gun, they would have looked like idiots.

Does the NFL have a huge safe they store this type of material in? This is an office like any other office...it;s not a police station fitted with an evidence locker.

They looked at the stuff, recorded all of it, it matched what the Patriots said they had, they told them they were going to be in deeper trouble if they learned of more stuff, and they destroyed it so it wouldn't be leaked to press or other teams.

It doesn't sound that crazy to me. They probably send stuff out daily to be incinerated and just threw it in the burn box when they were done with it.

I think this data is a little more high-profile and should be kept for future reference. I am sure the NFL is capable of finding a safe place to store tapes and notes. It's not like it's on a computer that can be hacked. Evidence should always be held. I really can't understand the rush to destroy it. It was like "I looked at it and now it's gone. No worries. They were fined but it wasn't that bad." It seems bogus to a lot of fans. That's all I'm saying.

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And these are the questions that will be asked for ever because of what the Patriots were caught doing and the uncertainty of what those tapes actually had on them. This will never end.

Good point, but in the case of the walkthrough, we don't even know for certain it happened. Naturally, people will believe it, simply because contraversy (sp) sells.

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Good point, but in the case of the walkthrough, we don't even know for certain it happened. Naturally, people will believe it, simply because contraversy (sp) sells.

Basically, and the Pats don't exactly deserve the benefit of the doubt.

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Basically, and the Pats don't exactly deserve the benefit of the doubt.

You're right, but just speaking for myself, I'm hard headed when it comes to believing things just because it's the popular thing to believe.

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Do you think he did the right things with the players who were involved in that type of behavior or not? Simple question.

Further, who should be the judge, jury, and executioner for players in the NFL if not the commissioner?

I got no problem with punishing those guys IF they do it right.

Jury? How 'bout a league committee gets together with the players Union and draws out somne guidlines that the players can actually look at and be warned about BEFORE you suspend them for 1 of the only 7 years they will make money in their lives?

Judge? How about a committee for this, or someone appointed

Executioner? The NFL. Why did all of these suspensions say "Roger Goodell has suspended" This is a serious issue taking peoples livilhoods and if they deserve to be suspended so be it but lets put some friggin rules in place first!

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You know what, the Washington Post reported this:

Hall of Fame quarterback Steve Young surely wants to hear more. In a lively exchange Sunday on ESPN, NFL analyst Ron Jaworski, another apologist in the no-big-deal Patriots corner -- said that in a playoff game back in 1975, his Los Angeles Rams team had stolen defensive signals from the St. Louis Cardinals that allowed him to throw a long touchdown pass.

I didn't happen to watch it on Sunday, but Bob Raissman in the New York Daily News wrote that their conversation went like this:

Jaworski: "To me, (cheating) is always part of the game. If you can gain an advantage to help you win, go for it."

Young: "So you're saying you're okay to sneak in and tape someone's practice?"

Jaworski: "Oh, you don't think that's been going on?"

Young: "I'm just saying you're okay with it?"

Jaworski: "Yeah I'm okay with it. Are you naive enough to think this is not happening?"

"Young: "I'm not naive. I'm just asking if you're okay with (cheating)."

Jaworski: "Yes."

All right. Besides a former childhood hero of mine saying that it's ok to cheat, :thumbsdown: what's interesting here is that he just said that his LA Rams won a playoff game in which they'd picked off defensive signals. Now, let's think about this. It doesn't say how they stole the signal -- and for all we know, sign stealing might have been perfectly legal in 1975, videotape or not. But imagine that you're a St. Louis football fan in 1975. Your team was in the playoffs a year ago (a one-and-done appearance). You haven't seen your team win a playoff game since 1947.

The Rams break the rules to pick off one of your team's defensive signals. The Rams win that game by 12 points, 35-23, and get a trip to the NFC Championship game. That pass, a 66-yarder, was Jaworski's only TD pass of the day, and put the Rams up by 28-6 at that point. St. Louis eventually cut the score to 28-16, after which an interception by the Rams led to a TD that helped put the game out of reach.

Now, the Cardinals did throw 2 INT's returned for TD's (yikes), but I'll tell you what, 21-16 can be way different from 28-16. It makes you wonder how much difference a TD pass gotten by a stolen signal can make in a playoff game. Well, at worst, how's this: The Cardinals didn't return to the playoffs for another 7 years. And didn't actually win a playoff game until about 15+ years after that, after they'd moved to Arizona. If you were a St. Louis football fan, you didn't see a playoff football win for your home town until 1999, with the Rams.

1947. 1999. Yikes. If everyone does it, fine. I hope that the Cardinals picked off some of the Rams' signals that day too, but just didn't execute as well.

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I think this data is a little more high-profile and should be kept for future reference. I am sure the NFL is capable of finding a safe place to store tapes and notes. It's not like it's on a computer that can be hacked. Evidence should always be held. I really can't understand the rush to destroy it. It was like "I looked at it and now it's gone. No worries. They were fined but it wasn't that bad." It seems bogus to a lot of fans. That's all I'm saying.

High profile, yes, but why keep the tapes and notebooks? No laws were broken. No charges from the Jets were disputed. The punishment was swift/steep. The punishment was not challenged by the Patriots. I'm sure they have records of what was on the tapes and notes/pictures/notarized statements. Why on earth would they keep VHS tapes laying around waiting to be stolen and sold to a tabloid or other press?

I understand a lot of people are looking for a cover up, but you weren't ever going to see those tapes no matter what. What the F would Arlen Specter see in this tapes even if I thought it was worth paying is salary so he could act on Comcast's behalf?

I think people are just over-thinking this WAY too much.

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I got no problem with punishing those guys IF they do it right.

Jury? How 'bout a league committee gets together with the players Union and draws out somne guidlines that the players can actually look at and be warned about BEFORE you suspend them for 1 of the only 7 years they will make money in their lives?

Judge? How about a committee for this, or someone appointed

Executioner? The NFL. Why did all of these suspensions say "Roger Goodell has suspended" This is a serious issue taking peoples livilhoods and if they deserve to be suspended so be it but lets put some friggin rules in place first!

So which punishments of his were wrong?

A jury? A committee?

Goodell is the commissioner for the NFL and these employees of his league are idiots. He's not suspending guys for coming to work late...he's suspending them for multiple DUIs, standing over dead bodies in strip clubs, drug use, etc.

It's a privilege to play in the league and he's reminding people of that. If they can't commit to not getting involved in nightclub shootouts, getting high, beating women, or whatever else they are getting suspended for, maybe they need to get their **** together instead of complaining about their boss not setting up a jury system for them.

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Well then I guess I'm no longer comfortable with the commish's office to do these types of investigations. It's not hard to secure sensitive material.

I've had a lot of experience with this in my career.

There are numerous strategies that include purchasing equipment for your site and storing sensitive equipment in outside vault facilities. The NFL did not have to worry about thieves or things like that because, if the evidence was as innocuous as we were led to believe, no advantage could have came if the info was leaked as every team in the league would have new signals by then.

The simplest explanation is there was material there that he never wanted people to know about...What material? who knows, you could speculate on info that the casinos in Las Vegas may have been interested in, info that past opponents might have been upset about, possibly info that would send the NFL down the same path as the NBA in terms of scandal.

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Well then I guess I'm no longer comfortable with the commish's office to do these types of investigations. It's not hard to secure sensitive material.

I've had a lot of experience with this in my career.

There are numerous strategies that include purchasing equipment for your site and storing sensitive equipment in outside vault facilities. The NFL did not have to worry about thieves or things like that because, if the evidence was as innocuous as we were led to believe, no advantage could have came if the info was leaked as every team in the league would have new signals by then.

The simplest explanation is there was material there that he never wanted people to know about...What material? who knows, you could speculate on info that the casinos in Las Vegas may have been interested in, info that past opponents might have been upset about, possibly info that would send the NFL down the same path as the NBA in terms of scandal.

See, this is a big part of the problem.

With all due respect, you don't have to be "comfortable" with anything. You aren't even a little bit involved. The NFL doesn't answer to the fans in regard to their policies on setting up evidence lockers in their office space.

This all just seems so crazy to me...I'm honestly shocked both by the level of tinfoil hat thinking going into this and the level of say the fans believe they should have in these matters.

It's a product...if you don't believe it's on the up and up, watch a different product.

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EDIT: Plus, consider this with the "everyone's doing it" argument. Why does Reid cover his mouth every time when calling in a play? Why do the Eagles defensive coaches go to great lengths to shield their signals when sending them in? Why do they change defensive signals very week, sometimes in the middle of a game?

Why would they go to all those lengths if there is only one or two teams attempting to pick up signals?

The answer to this could easily be TV cameras. How many sideline shots do we get every week? The TV is on open air, so anything revealed would be fair game for opponents to "scout".

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The answer to this could easily be TV cameras. How many sideline shots do we get every week? The TV is on open air, so anything revealed would be fair game for opponents to "scout".

So you're saying every team in the league is subject to the taping of their signals if they don't hide them, right?

In short, don't tape signals, but in the name of all that is holy, protect your own intellectual property.

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High profile, yes, but why keep the tapes and notebooks? No laws were broken. No charges from the Jets were disputed. The punishment was swift/steep. The punishment was not challenged by the Patriots. I'm sure they have records of what was on the tapes and notes/pictures/notarized statements. Why on earth would they keep VHS tapes laying around waiting to be stolen and sold to a tabloid or other press?

I understand a lot of people are looking for a cover up, but you weren't ever going to see those tapes no matter what. What the F would Arlen Specter see in this tapes even if I thought it was worth paying is salary so he could act on Comcast's behalf?

I think people are just over-thinking this WAY too much.

Evidence should always be held. Especially if something else surfaces and a case does end up coming up. When is evidence ever destroyed like that and when is it done that quickly? Oh it has been determined that this guys finger prints are on this knife, let's destroy it now.

If you think it serves no purpose to keep, fine. Plenty of us beg to differ.

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Evidence should always be held. Especially if something else surfaces and a case does end up coming up. When is evidence ever destroyed like that and when is it done that quickly? Oh it has been determined that this guys finger prints are on this knife, let's destroy it now.

If you think it serves no purpose to keep, fine. Plenty of us beg to differ.

But this isn't a court of law, no laws were broken, and the Patriots admitted their wrongdoing/accepted their punishment without even appealing.

I don't think it would have been weird of them to keep it and I don't think it's strange they got rid of it.

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