BillySims

Why do people consider Terrell Owens so "talented?"

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Actually, I bring it up just to reinforce my point. The question as to who "won" was over a long time ago when I beat everyone in this thread who tried to take me on with my hand tied behind my back. That's what's so sad about all of this. And you actually think "nobody agrees with you" (argumentum ad populum) is a good argument...you should have learned otherwise just by going through high school, but I guess not. Unless you're still in high school. Please tell me that you are.

Anyway, the point now is to actually convince anyone hanging on the fence of the truth. If Owens had the all-time great talent to match the undeniable production, why wasn't he in higher demand? The Cowboys gave up a higher pick (and more picks) for Roy Williams in 2008 than the Ravens gave up to get Owens.

I'll tell you exactly why that is. It's because a lot of NFL scouts and personnel men thought Owens was a product of the 49ers' system. A West Coast Offense receiver, purely. Great size, but a severe lack of speed and inconsistent hands. They thought he was limited and wouldn't be nearly as successful outside that system.

Of course, he later played in Dallas and proved them all wrong, but it wasn't through talents that scouts just didn't know he had.

Similarly, why do you think Wes Welker had such little interest on the market, despite his enormous production? For the exact same reasons. Scouts think he's a product of a system and limited athletically.

By the way, Owens recently tweeted that he ran a 4.63 at the combine coming out. There is absolutely no way he was faster at 38 and coming off an ACL tear last year running for the Seahawks than he was as a 22-year-old, so that should put to rest the bogus "sub-4.5" 40-yard-dash he supposedly ran. The fact that he didn't even make the team demonstrates as much.

And here's more - in 2006, Owens was voted the most overrated player in football by...other players.

http://nbcsports.msn...om/id/15491122/

cliff notes please

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Stats sometimes don't tell an accurate story, but look at his stat line for his last season in the NFL (Bengals). 72 REC, 983 YDS, 9 TD's. If Maclin did that we would be going insane.

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You're forgetting the whole issue with him voiding his final year on his contract and trying to become a free agent. Owens' agent screwed up and missed the deadline to void the rest of the contract. Owens faught this so he could become a free agent. While that was happening, the 49ers tried to trade him quickly, making the trade with the Ravens. Owens also was agreeing to a contract with the Eagles. The NFLPA filed a grivence and it was decided (by and abitrator) that he'll be traded to the Eagles from the 49ers in exchange for Brandon Whiting, while the Ravens received a 5th round pick.

Owens did bash Garcia prior to all of this happening and did make it aware that he didn't want to play in SF anymore.

Owens didn't fight it until after he was traded to the Ravens. That pissed him off. After the paperwork fell through, he/his agent requested a trade. He assumed the Eagles were going to be scooping in to get him, but they wouldn't even match the Ravens' offer. That's because the Eagles didn't even value him that highly.

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1. How can you say he wasn't a Diva? Owens, without doubt, suffers from a narcissistic personality disorder.

"Narcissism is a psychiatric diagnosis characterized by an exaggerated sense of self-importance and uniqueness, an abnormal need for attention and admiration, preoccupation with grandiose fantasies concerning the self, and disturbances in interpersonal relationships, usually involving the exploitation of others and a lack of empathy."

Based on what? What are you, a shrink now?

That description doesn't sound like him at all. Unless you want to diagnose him from over-the-top showboating during a football game, which is ridiculous. If that's the case, the 1999 Rams had a bunch of players with the same disorder. Deion clearly has it. Michael Jordan had it. Every athlete who is cocky on the field has it. How ridiculous.

You're mistaking the media giving a celebrity non-stop attention with the celebrity actually craving the attention. Owens doesn't need to do much to get their attention, he already has it. He has had it ever since he ran to the middle of the field in Texas Stadium after scoring. His housing sales/foreclosures are constantly in the news. His presence at a basketball game is news.

Think about what he could do if he was truly desperate for attention. Think about the things he could say. He's not the one who legally changed his last name. He has no tattoos, he's never died his hair. He's never dated a sex symbol, he doesn't really have a presence in the big city party scenes.

If he's attention whoring, he's not doing a very good job of it.

2. You argue he didn't 'squander' any opportunities?

Well, I would submit he squandered his only opportunity of winning a SB with his pathological behavior in his second year with the Eagles.

Huh? What opportunity to win a Super Bowl? You're telling me the Eagles were going to win the Super Bowl with Donovan McNabb playing with a sports hernia that needed surgery? Or did Owens cause McNabb's sports hernia injury by "disrupting the locker room?" :rolleyes:

Pathological behavior? Knock it off with the dimestore pop psychology BS. You don't know him. You're just basing your opinion on his character on his image in a media setting, an image I determined was BS a long time ago when I actually tried to sit and watch some of his interviews. He is hands down the most boring interview I have ever seen in my life.

Example Owens interview: "Again, obviously, again, obviously, obviously, other than that, again, again, again, the sky is the limit, again, other than that, obviously."

The only entertaining things he did were his touchdown celebrations. Maybe the situps in the driveway. Maybe.

He's entertaining on the field, not off it. They make him out to be this "big personality," but in all honesty Owens is closer to being Tim Duncan than he is to being Chad Johnson. He's flamboyant on the field so people assume that must be what he's like in his everyday personality. He's not funny, he's not witty, he's not outspoken or sharp-tongued. He's a stubborn country bumpkin who thought he had the right to celebrate however he pleased, never apologize, and he paid for it with his reputation. His Bible-thumping upbringing didn't do him any favors. He was raised to believe God was on his side.

Jerry Rice was far more disruptive and selfish than Owens ever was, but Rice never had to pay for it because...get this...Rice was worth it. Rice was a much better wide receiver. It wasn't even close. He was the Michael Jordan of football. Selfish, arrogant, a jerk...but he was so good that you put up with it. Plus, Rice played before the sports media became what it is today.

So an 'under achieving' McNabb or not.... those two guys had something special that was working!!!

Um what was so special about it? Owens had better numbers in San Francisco playing with Jeff Garcia than he did with Donovan McNabb in Philadelphia. Same in Dallas with Tony Romo. See a pattern? It's Owens, it had nothing to do with McNabb. So long as Owens has a competent quarterback, he's going to produce.

MEO F'n squandered the sheet out of that opportunity.

Squandered his way into Dallas, where he put up better numbers with Romo than he did or ever would have with McNabb. Because, get this - Romo is a far better passer than McNabb. McNabb, at his very best, was only solid.

Meanwhile, the Eagles have won how many Super Bowls since dumping him again?

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Owens didn't fight it until after he was traded to the Ravens. That pissed him off. After the paperwork fell through, he/his agent requested a trade. He assumed the Eagles were going to be scooping in to get him, but they wouldn't even match the Ravens' offer. That's because the Eagles didn't even value him that highly.

Owens basically already had an agreement with the Eagles, so why would the Eagles offer much of anything for a guy they were going to be able to sign as a free agent? The 49ers moved quickly to trade him to the Ravens, though there was still the possibilty that something would happen due to the grivence that was filed.

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Owens basically already had an agreement with the Eagles, so why would the Eagles offer much of anything for a guy they were going to be able to sign as a free agent? The 49ers moved quickly to trade him to the Ravens, though there was still the possibilty that something would happen due to the grivence that was filed.

Because if they didn't, they weren't going to get him. Owens didn't file the grievance until after the 49ers traded him to the Ravens. They weren't trying to work out a quick trade, they were trying to get the best value for him they could. The 49ers called the Eagles back to let them know the Ravens' offer, and the Eagles never upped it.

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Based on what? What are you, a shrink now?

That description doesn't sound like him at all. Unless you want to diagnose him from over-the-top showboating during a football game, which is ridiculous. If that's the case, the 1999 Rams had a bunch of players with the same disorder. Deion clearly has it. Michael Jordan had it. Every athlete who is cocky on the field has it. How ridiculous.

You're mistaking the media giving a celebrity non-stop attention with the celebrity actually craving the attention. Owens doesn't need to do much to get their attention, he already has it. He has had it ever since he ran to the middle of the field in Texas Stadium after scoring. His housing sales/foreclosures are constantly in the news. His presence at a basketball game is news.

Think about what he could do if he was truly desperate for attention. Think about the things he could say. He's not the one who legally changed his last name. He has no tattoos, he's never died his hair. He's never dated a sex symbol, he doesn't really have a presence in the big city party scenes.

If he's attention whoring, he's not doing a very good job of it.

Huh? What opportunity to win a Super Bowl? You're telling me the Eagles were going to win the Super Bowl with Donovan McNabb playing with a sports hernia that needed surgery? Or did Owens cause McNabb's sports hernia injury by "disrupting the locker room?" :rolleyes:

Pathological behavior? Knock it off with the dimestore pop psychology BS. You don't know him. You're just basing your opinion on his character on his image in a media setting, an image I determined was BS a long time ago when I actually tried to sit and watch some of his interviews. He is hands down the most boring interview I have ever seen in my life.

Example Owens interview: "Again, obviously, again, obviously, obviously, other than that, again, again, again, the sky is the limit, again, other than that, obviously."

The only entertaining things he did were his touchdown celebrations. Maybe the situps in the driveway. Maybe.

He's entertaining on the field, not off it. They make him out to be this "big personality," but in all honesty Owens is closer to being Tim Duncan than he is to being Chad Johnson. He's flamboyant on the field so people assume that must be what he's like in his everyday personality. He's not funny, he's not witty, he's not outspoken or sharp-tongued. He's a stubborn country bumpkin who thought he had the right to celebrate however he pleased, never apologize, and he paid for it with his reputation. His Bible-thumping upbringing didn't do him any favors. He was raised to believe God was on his side.

Jerry Rice was far more disruptive and selfish than Owens ever was, but Rice never had to pay for it because...get this...Rice was worth it. Rice was a much better wide receiver. It wasn't even close. He was the Michael Jordan of football. Selfish, arrogant, a jerk...but he was so good that you put up with it. Plus, Rice played before the sports media became what it is today.

Um what was so special about it? Owens had better numbers in San Francisco playing with Jeff Garcia than he did with Donovan McNabb in Philadelphia. Same in Dallas with Tony Romo. See a pattern? It's Owens, it had nothing to do with McNabb. So long as Owens has a competent quarterback, he's going to produce.

Squandered his way into Dallas, where he put up better numbers with Romo than he did or ever would have with McNabb. Because, get this - Romo is a far better passer than McNabb. McNabb, at his very best, was only solid.

Meanwhile, the Eagles have won how many Super Bowls since dumping him again?

0...biggest mistake in the Reid/mcnabb era....no doubt we have a ring if we would have just paid the man...

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Because if they didn't, they weren't going to get him. Owens didn't file the grievance until after the 49ers traded him to the Ravens. They weren't trying to work out a quick trade, they were trying to get the best value for him they could. The 49ers called the Eagles back to let them know the Ravens' offer, and the Eagles never upped it.

  1. Why would the Eagles attempt to trade for a player that they were going to sign as a free agent?
  2. Everything happened very quickly, I'd be really curious to see your links showing where the 49ers called the Eagles to let them know what the Ravens offered.
  3. I think you're just making things up. Trying to revise history to make it look like T.O. didn't have much talent, which is why he wasn't traded for very much.
  4. Clearly Randy Moss must not be talented, based on your horrible logic, because he was traded for a 4th round pick to the Patriots. You could do this with several players (Asante Samuel would be another example, though A.J. Feeley must be really talented because he was traded for a 2nd round pick).

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0...biggest mistake in the Reid/mcnabb era....no doubt we have a ring if we would have just paid the man...

Ironically enough, Owens earned $49M over the 7 years with the Eagles, Cowboys, Bills, and Bengals. That is what his contract was for with the Eagles.

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  1. Why would the Eagles attempt to trade for a player that they were going to sign as a free agent?
  2. Everything happened very quickly, I'd be really curious to see your links showing where the 49ers called the Eagles to let them know what the Ravens offered.
  3. I think you're just making things up. Trying to revise history to make it look like T.O. didn't have much talent, which is why he wasn't traded for very much.
  4. Clearly Randy Moss must not be talented, based on your horrible logic, because he was traded for a 4th round pick to the Patriots. You could do this with several players (Asante Samuel would be another example, though A.J. Feeley must be really talented because he was traded for a 2nd round pick).

1. Because he wasn't a free agent anymore.

2. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6GZWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zvIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1958,3844475&dq=terrell+owens+terry+donahue+eagles+to+call+back&hl=en

3. Nope.

4. I knew someone would bring up Randy Moss. Moss went for only a 4th because he quit on the Raiders. He was coming off a terrible season (42-553-3) and nobody wanted a quitter. Asante Samuel was considered washed up, had a big contract nobody wanted to pick up, and never was the most talented corner around to begin with. He's a guy who gambled a lot. Big interception numbers, not the greatest cover guy.

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i sided with T.O i always respected T.O's work ethic, T.O may have been a drama queen but coaches always commented on his no nonsense practice habits and hard he worked in practice in games and in the offseason, where as mcnabb was a drama queen who didnt work that hard, T.O was one of the best condidtioned athletes in the game where as mcnabb would consistently show up to camp fat and out of shape.

SLOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW down !!!!

this is the guy who was infamous for spending training camp on an excercise bike

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Owens didn't fight it until after he was traded to the Ravens. That pissed him off. After the paperwork fell through, he/his agent requested a trade. He assumed the Eagles were going to be scooping in to get him, but they wouldn't even match the Ravens' offer. That's because the Eagles didn't even value him that highly.

0...biggest mistake in the Reid/mcnabb era....no doubt we have a ring if we would have just paid the man...

Ironically enough, Owens earned $49M over the 7 years with the Eagles, Cowboys, Bills, and Bengals. That is what his contract was for with the Eagles.

Whats often glanced over in all of the TO vs Eagles talk is that Banner came out and openly admitted that they structured TO's contract that way intentionally - he played directly into their hands. The lowball 2nd year was almost bait to draw out the psychopath within and it worked.

****** PS - *********

Its almost a DECADE later!!!!!

A F'N DECADE!

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SLOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW down !!!!

this is the guy who was infamous for spending training camp on an excercise bike

Well, it's nice to see you have no clue what you're talking about. Owens started the 2006 Cowboys training camp on an exercise bike because - get this - he had a hamstring injury. The horror.

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Whats often glanced over in all of the TO vs Eagles talk is that Banner came out and openly admitted that they structured TO's contract that way intentionally - he played directly into their hands. The lowball 2nd year was almost bait to draw out the psychopath within and it worked.

****** PS - *********

Its almost a DECADE later!!!!!

A F'N DECADE!

Yeah...no. The Eagles structured it that way because that's how they structured contracts back then - backloaded to allow for a release before any big money was reached. Cap conscious. And they had extra leverage because Owens/his agent wanted to work out a deal before the grievance was ruled on. That was where the "quick trade" came into play. Both sides were afraid of losing - Owens/his agent and being stuck in Baltimore, and the Ravens/49ers and being left with nothing. The Eagles were the real winners in the whole thing, sacrificing only Brandon Whiting.

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Try 2 teams in one year stints, not 3, and both of those were when he only signed a 1 year contract. And he had a bad year on the Bills and tore his ACL at the end of his year with the Bengals, while both teams didn't even come close to making the playoffs. If the Bills thought he was still a good receiver, they would have brought him back. There were no issues there whatsoever. Chan Gailey came out and said that he watched Owens on film and made the decision not to bring him back because he thought he had "hit a wall."

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This is what NFL personnel guys really think about Terrell Owens:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/does-terrell-owens-deserve-bust-223300967--nfl.html

“I just don’t see the talent,” the first executive said. “I see a big guy, who in his heyday did damage when with other weapons. Damn right you better deal with him. But all the accolades of the 'One-man band' and 'You can’t stop him,' I never bought any of that. Just stay on him, do your job and eventually he’ll self-destruct. He’ll drop balls, lose concentration, run a [bad] route, leave the quarterback out to dry. Not in a verbal way, in route running. All those things are what he is. Add it all up and he’s not in the conversation.”

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...and that's why there are so many busts in the NFL.

If you could figure out who was going to be really good based on metrics, drafting players would be a piece of cake. Unfortunately, while the OP might have some valid points, sometimes the sum of the parts exceed the whole. His time with the 9ers and Eagles were great. He had great numbers and produced regardless of the coverage placed upon him. To downplay that simply because he grunts when he cuts is insane and downright retarded.

There was some idiot back that had a similar point about Joe Montana. He rattled off some stats and concluded that he couldn't have been very good, just based off of some numbers without looking at context in any way.

TO, whether you liked him or not, was an extremely gifted and talented player. To take that away from him reduces the stature of all of the WRs below him on every stat line. There are many many great WRs that are below him.

This is what NFL personnel guys really think about Terrell Owens:

http://sports.yahoo....00967--nfl.html

“I just don’t see the talent,” the first executive said. “I see a big guy, who in his heyday did damage when with other weapons. Damn right you better deal with him. But all the accolades of the 'One-man band' and 'You can’t stop him,' I never bought any of that. Just stay on him, do your job and eventually he’ll self-destruct. He’ll drop balls, lose concentration, run a [bad] route, leave the quarterback out to dry. Not in a verbal way, in route running. All those things are what he is. Add it all up and he’s not in the conversation.”

Guys or guy? I see one quote. I'm going to guess that quote was someone from the Baltimore Ravens team after he renegged on his verbal agreement with them.

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...and that's why there are so many busts in the NFL.

If you could figure out who was going to be really good based on metrics, drafting players would be a piece of cake. Unfortunately, while the OP might have some valid points, sometimes the sum of the parts exceed the whole. His time with the 9ers and Eagles were great. He had great numbers and produced regardless of the coverage placed upon him. To downplay that simply because he grunts when he cuts is insane and downright retarded.

There was some idiot back that had a similar point about Joe Montana. He rattled off some stats and concluded that he couldn't have been very good, just based off of some numbers without looking at context in any way.

TO, whether you liked him or not, was an extremely gifted and talented player. To take that away from him reduces the stature of all of the WRs below him on every stat line. There are many many great WRs that are below him.

Guys or guy? I see one quote. I'm going to guess that quote was someone from the Baltimore Ravens team after he renegged on his verbal agreement with them.

Not arguing he wasn't great, I'm arguing he wasn't that talented and was the biggest overachiever in NFL history. Poor hands, poor routes, slow as molasses, and his natural figure is that of a twig (used to get bullied all the time in high school). The guy did it all with sheer hard work (although he did inherit the "tall" gene, which was a big asset...but that has nothing to do with talent) and should be enormously respected for that.

Most of the people who insist he was so "talented" do it as a hidden pejorative. That way, they can pretend his career was somehow some sort of failure, not that it was way more successful than it had any right to be...solely because they don't like him "personally" (which is silly, since none of us actually know him, but that's beside the point). If I didn't know any better, I'd think Terrell Owens went in the 1st round and Marvin Harrison was the 3rd round pick from the University of Tennessee-Chattanooga. Or maybe Reggie Wayne.

The NFL perception is upside down. Big college star WRs like Harrison and Wayne are regarded as "quiet, hard working types," and Owens is put in the same sentence as the likes of Randy Moss. Owens, a country bumpkin from the dirt roads of Alabama, grinding and grunting, running 4.7 in the 40, struggling to catch the ball.

And why would you assume such a thing? First of all, he never had a "verbal agreement" with the Ravens. They traded for him and he made it clear from the beginning he didn't want to play for them. That has nothing to do with hands and routes and not having talent. I'm pretty sure Ozzie Newsome would be the first to say Owens was a top receiver. John Harbaugh still praises Owens in the media.

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He was pretty unstoppable with the 49ers and in Philly...In Dallas I wasn't as impressed with him, I mean his numbers were very good, but I felt they force fed him the ball to keep him quiet.

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