BillySims

Why do people consider Terrell Owens so "talented?"

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Rice didn't run a 4.7. That comes from the land of internet make-believe. Rice was also a superb route runner with great hands. Owens was a poor route runner with bad hands.

 

Yes he did. It's very well documented. He ran it in his combine and there's nothing else to suggest hat he ran a hundredth faster. There are many reasons as to why he was successful. One being his W Payton like training routines. He was so much more fit that the other 21 players on the field that come the 4th quarter, he was by far the freshest and most explosive player on the field, hence why most of his memorable catches and runs came later in all those epic games with Montana.

 

Like Owens, he was a workaholic and a true competitor, he's quoted as saying "whenever the ball is up in the air, I believe that the ball belongs to me. And that's the attitude that you have to have." Sometimes the NFL isn't all about size and strength, its about who wants it the most. Look at Doug Flutie, Steve Tasker, Sam Mills, Steve Atwater, Pat Fischer.

 

To your other point, Owens wasn't necessarily a "bad route runner". Yes, he didn't run good designed routes IE - Spot, comeback, hook etc, but he was phenomenal at running shallow cross, post, go, deep dig etc against zone coverage and there were very few CB's who could even hope to get a jam on him even if you did try to play man. Yes, he had a problem with his hands later in his career (I think he lost motivation after his first year in DAL) but his numbers speak for themselves.

 

And for the record, I do agree with you that he never had the natural talent of a Megatron, or Randy Moss etc., but his career is literally a deafening example of what can come from being a self-motivated individual who has a relentless work ethic. When he came into the league, he was JAG, but TO literally worked himself to the top, and that's why he's got multiple top 3 career numbers.

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It really is amazing what Romo was able to do last season having been half crippled...what a boss. He doesn't strike you as a mans man because he looks and sounds like a goofball, but Romo to me really is a rare breed when it comes to pain tolerance.

 

F'ing can't stand Romo as a player. Not just because he plays for Dallas, but because runs around in pocket with his tongue hanging out then turns his back on the LOS, then spins around and throws a pass to an uncovered (thanks Reid) Jason Witten for a 3rd a long conversion.

 

BUT, I actually really like Romo as a person. Down to earth dude, real stand up guy and I respect him, which IMO is the only thing that matters.

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Yes he did. It's very well documented. He ran it in his combine and there's nothing else to suggest hat he ran a hundredth faster. There are many reasons as to why he was successful. One being his W Payton like training routines. He was so much more fit that the other 21 players on the field that come the 4th quarter, he was by far the freshest and most explosive player on the field, hence why most of his memorable catches and runs came later in all those epic games with Montana.

 

Like Owens, he was a workaholic and a true competitor, he's quoted as saying "whenever the ball is up in the air, I believe that the ball belongs to me. And that's the attitude that you have to have." Sometimes the NFL isn't all about size and strength, its about who wants it the most. Look at Doug Flutie, Steve Tasker, Sam Mills, Steve Atwater, Pat Fischer.

 

To your other point, Owens wasn't necessarily a "bad route runner". Yes, he didn't run good designed routes IE - Spot, comeback, hook etc, but he was phenomenal at running shallow cross, post, go, deep dig etc against zone coverage and there were very few CB's who could even hope to get a jam on him even if you did try to play man. Yes, he had a problem with his hands later in his career (I think he lost motivation after his first year in DAL) but his numbers speak for themselves.

 

And for the record, I do agree with you that he never had the natural talent of a Megatron, or Randy Moss etc., but his career is literally a deafening example of what can come from being a self-motivated individual who has a relentless work ethic. When he came into the league, he was JAG, but TO literally worked himself to the top, and that's why he's got multiple top 3 career numbers.

 

No, there is not a single source that isn't from some message board poster saying Rice ever ran a 4.7. Rice says his best time was a 4.4. So did Gil Brandt who was the Cowboys' scouting director.

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No, there is not a single source that isn't from some message board poster saying Rice ever ran a 4.7. Rice says his best time was a 4.4. So did Gil Brandt who was the Cowboys' scouting director.

 

Rice, for the record, ran the dash in 4.59 seconds, according to the late Bill Walsh. (Rice bristled at the thought of recording something above 4.6 seconds but also didn’t run the 4.37 that NFL Media’s made-up“Jerry Ricecake” ran at the Scouting Combine.)

 

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Baalke-Jerry-Rice-Puts-40-yard-Dash-in-Perspective/2263a098-32f5-4926-8768-94ca0606c4e5

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Rice, for the record, ran the dash in 4.59 seconds, according to the late Bill Walsh. (Rice bristled at the thought of recording something above 4.6 seconds but also didn’t run the 4.37 that NFL Media’s made-up“Jerry Ricecake” ran at the Scouting Combine.)

 

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Baalke-Jerry-Rice-Puts-40-yard-Dash-in-Perspective/2263a098-32f5-4926-8768-94ca0606c4e5

 

Pretty sure Walsh was talking out his a**, which he was famous for doing (Walsh referred to nearly every player on his team as the best in the NFL/NFL history at their position). Nonetheless, "4.7" is completely fabricated by internet message board goers. Both Rice and Brandt said 4.4, and I remember seeing a scout say "I had Jerry Rice at 4.55 on my stopwatch" during a piece on him.

 

Rice went 16th overall playing at a division 1-AA university with a wide open offensive system that worried scouts (they thought he was a product of the system). He would not have gone that high running no faster than Jeremiah Trotter. Let's be real.

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Pretty sure Walsh was talking out his a**, which he was famous for doing (Walsh referred to nearly every player on his team as the best in the NFL/NFL history at their position). Nonetheless, "4.7" is completely fabricated by internet message board goers. Both Rice and Brandt said 4.4, and I remember seeing a scout say "I had Jerry Rice at 4.55 on my stopwatch" during a piece on him.

 

Rice went 16th overall playing at a division 1-AA university with a wide open offensive system that worried scouts (they thought he was a product of the system). He would not have gone that high running no faster than Jeremiah Trotter. Let's be real.

 

Of course he would have if you watched his game tape.  As the article I posted goes into, there is 40 speed and game speed.  Some guys who put up great 40 numbers don't have great game speed.  Some guys who put up crap 40 numbers have great game speed.  49ers liked what they saw from Rice's tape.  

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Of course he would have if you watched his game tape.  As the article I posted goes into, there is 40 speed and game speed.  Some guys who put up great 40 numbers don't have great game speed.  Some guys who put up crap 40 numbers have great game speed.  49ers liked what they saw from Rice's tape.  

 

That's ridiculous. Anquan Boldin dropped to the late 2nd round after running a 4.7 while recovering from a knee injury and he went to Florida State and played in a pro style offense. Rice went to a division 1-AA school and played in a gimmick offense. The 40 time is a huge barometer for NFL scouts. Some guys get drafted for that alone.

 

And nobody who runs 4.7 is going to ever, EVER out-run guys who run 4.3 and 4.4. I don't care if they're wearing pads, running on quicksand, in outer space. Some guys may carry the pads a bit better than others but it's not going to make up that kind of a difference. That's the equivalent to Joe Staley out-running DeSean Jackson.

 

I'm not talking about routes, I'm talking about Rice pulling away from people in the open field.

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Anyway, all this Rice stuff is beside the point. The point is that people rave about Owens's "talent" as a way to disparage him, when he was the biggest overachiever pro sports has ever seen. "He could have been the best ever, but his mouth/behavior/attitude/blah blah blah." His attitude was partly what got him drafted - teams saw him as a modest, hard working type. He didn't have the image he has today until all the touchdown celebration nonsense. Then it all snowballed on him and he had to live up to people's expectations of him as a "personality" to fit the cocky black athlete stereotype.

 

In reality, he was a gym rat who sacrificed most of the food pyramid to develop his physique. Despite that, he had brick hands, could not change direction well in routes, and ran no better than the average Defensive End.

 

But he found ways around it. He zig-zagged to keep from being caught by faster defensive backs in the open field, which was virtually every DB in the NFL. He mastered the subtle push off to gain separation - he was never very physical, but he was sneaky. That's why he was only called for pass interference 7 times in his entire career (Randy Moss, by comparison, was called 30 times).

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OwenTe00/penalties/

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MossRa00/penalties/

 

And he knew how to find the soft spots in zone to get open.

 

Face it - if Terrell Owens was white, nobody would think he's anything other than a huge overachiever.

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Anyway, all this Rice stuff is beside the point. The point is that people rave about Owens's "talent" as a way to disparage him, when he was the biggest overachiever pro sports has ever seen. "He could have been the best ever, but his mouth/behavior/attitude/blah blah blah." His attitude was partly what got him drafted - teams saw him as a modest, hard working type. He didn't have the image he has today until all the touchdown celebration nonsense. Then it all snowballed on him and he had to live up to people's expectations of him as a "personality" to fit the cocky black athlete stereotype.

 

In reality, he was a gym rat who sacrificed most of the food pyramid to develop his physique. Despite that, he had brick hands, could not change direction well in routes, and ran no better than the average Defensive End.

 

But he found ways around it. He zig-zagged to keep from being caught by faster defensive backs in the open field, which was virtually every DB in the NFL. He mastered the subtle push off to gain separation - he was never very physical, but he was sneaky. That's why he was only called for pass interference 7 times in his entire career (Randy Moss, by comparison, was called 30 times).

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OwenTe00/penalties/

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MossRa00/penalties/

 

And he knew how to find the soft spots in zone to get open.

 

Face it - if Terrell Owens was white, nobody would think he's anything other than a huge overachiever.

 

You're right. But I still don't see the point of this whole discussion.

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If T.O. Was white he would be an overachiever.

Lol...what? And I thought the Mariota thread would give me a headache...

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That's ridiculous. Anquan Boldin dropped to the late 2nd round after running a 4.7 while recovering from a knee injury and he went to Florida State and played in a pro style offense. Rice went to a division 1-AA school and played in a gimmick offense. The 40 time is a huge barometer for NFL scouts. Some guys get drafted for that alone.

 

And nobody who runs 4.7 is going to ever, EVER out-run guys who run 4.3 and 4.4. I don't care if they're wearing pads, running on quicksand, in outer space. Some guys may carry the pads a bit better than others but it's not going to make up that kind of a difference. That's the equivalent to Joe Staley out-running DeSean Jackson.

 

I'm not talking about routes, I'm talking about Rice pulling away from people in the open field.

 

Let's see who's assessment has more credibility here, BillySims or Trent Baalke?   That's a tough one...

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Let's see who's assessment has more credibility here, BillySims or Trent Baalke?   That's a tough one...

 

Where did Trent Baalke say he would draft a small school WR 16th overall despite a 4.7 40 time? Where did he say a 4.7 40 guy could pull away from a 4.3 or 4.4 guy? Nowhere. He's simply saying sometimes 40 times can be a little misleading. Perhaps a 4.5 guy plays faster than a 4.4 guy...along those lines. Not when the differences are that pronounced.

 

If that were possible, why aren't there tight ends doing this? 4.7 is a typical tight end time. Most tight ends in the league run in the 4.7 range at worst. Yet they're not pulling away from 4.3/4.4 guys in the open field. They're catching possession patterns, maybe powering through a few tackles after the catch, and averaging 12 yards/catch.

 

Jerry Rice averaged 18.4 yards/catch in 1985-1989.

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The OP must not have been alive in 2004. TO got here and the Eagles were essentially unstoppable. He was the only reason the Eagles even had a chance to beay the Pats, and he was simply dominate. He was big, strong, and a powerhouse after the catch.

This thread fails big time. If AR, McNabb and the Eagles FO could simply get over themselves there would be at least one lombardi in Philly by now.

All they needed to do was bring back loaded money forward. It really could have been that simple.

T.O. DESERVED A RENEGOTIATED CONTRACT.

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Who cares about T.O.??

 

He's been gone for going on 10 years!

 

Move on!!

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Speed is what separated TO from average NFL WRs. Lots of WRs are big and can catch balls in traffic, but TO could also run past a db. Trying to defend TO was a nightmare, because not many corners can handle that type of size/speed combo.

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To touch on the Jerry Rice speed issue:

 

 

I select this because Rams DB Grey was timed at 4.4 in his 40 and Rice flew past him and actually had to slow down to adjust to Montana's pass. 

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I've always thought people had the wrong perception of him, and one of the biggest ones is this idea that he somehow squandered something. Well, maybe his money, but he certainly didn't squander anything when it came to his football career.

On the contrary, I think Owens may be the biggest overachiever in the history of professional sports.

I don't know if anyone has ever actually watched him in practices, but if you did, you'd see that nothing he does comes naturally to him. He audibly grunts and groans every time he runs or makes a cut. He runs very sloppy routes. He struggles catching the football (we all know how many balls he drops). He has below average speed for a wide receiver. He's not really a great leaper, either.

When you add all of this up, you can see why he had to go to a division 1-AA school. You can see why he was the 12th receiver taken in the draft, 89th overall. He's just not all that naturally athletic.

Yet I hear people mention him in the same sentence as Randy Moss. He's really the furthest thing from Randy Moss. Moss was a national phenom, a big Deion Sanders. A one man show. If it hadn't been for his off field problems, he would have gone #1 overall in the draft.

He's more like Drew Pearson.

So what is it about him? It must be the physique. But do people honestly think that he just naturally has that great physique? That great physique of his was honed through years and years in the weight room. He wasn't born with 6 pack abs and an all-around chiseled frame. He worked for that. That's not talent, that's pure desire.

So many sided with Donovan McNabb during all the 2005 nonsense, but in that overblown "feud," one of those men was one of the most naturally gifted athletes at his position to ever play professional football. And that man was lazy and demonstrated a lack of dedication and underachieved. The exact opposite of the attributes possessed by the other man. And people sided with the former.

The power of media.

This is the dumbest thread I've ever seen in over 15 years I've been on the internet. Lol, TO had world class speed. I've watched his whole career from start to finish and you should really quit watching football if you can't judge talent like his. Imo, he's right up there with Moss and Megatron as the most physically talented receivers I've ever seen. What was his 40? Some say when he came in the league he ran between a 4.3-4.6. He got faster when he got into the league. He holds the Superstars 100 yard dash record and one the race 2 times. There's been some pretty fast guys run that race throughout the years btw. Second year one of the Barber's got off to a bad false start and TO still easily ran him down. I'll leave this here for you though. TO hit's a gear that very few player I've ever seen hit, when he catches the ball he kinda jumped and still smoked that corner that had an angle on him. In 04 against the Cowboys on MNF, TO caught a pass over the middle and took it the left side and Newman was coming at an angle and he put his hand out and told him to stop running. The same Newman that ran down Moss 40 yards downfield with the Raiders. You should really research things before showing your lack of knowledge. Also check the record for most 50 yard tds. Who's about tied for 2nd lmao ALLTIME. That's without playing with a good qb that could throw it well downfield till McNabb and Romo in his 30s!!!

 

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This is the dumbest thread I've ever seen in over 15 years I've been on the internet. Lol, TO had world class speed. I've watched his whole career from start to finish and you should really quit watching football if you can't judge talent like his. Imo, he's right up there with Moss and Megatron as the most physically talented receivers I've ever seen. What was his 40? Some say when he came in the league he ran between a 4.3-4.6. He got faster when he got into the league. He holds the Superstars 100 yard dash record and one the race 2 times. There's been some pretty fast guys run that race throughout the years btw. Second year one of the Barber's got off to a bad false start and TO still easily ran him down. I'll leave this here for you though. TO hit's a gear that very few player I've ever seen hit, when he catches the ball he kinda jumped and still smoked that corner that had an angle on him. In 04 against the Cowboys on MNF, TO caught a pass over the middle and took it the left side and Newman was coming at an angle and he put his hand out and told him to stop running. The same Newman that ran down Moss 40 yards downfield with the Raiders. You should really research things before showing your lack of knowledge. Also check the record for most 50 yard tds. Who's about tied for 2nd lmao ALLTIME. That's without playing with a good qb that could throw it well downfield till McNabb and Romo in his 30s!!!

 

 

 

 

 

I was with you until the very end...I thought Steve Young and Jeff Garcia both threw the ball very well down field.

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I was with you until the very end...I thought Steve Young and Jeff Garcia both threw the ball very well down field.

Yeah Steve did, but his arm had gotten a little weak around 97-98. I always thought Garcia had a noodle arm, a lot of TO's longer td's came off yac. Rattay had a pretty good arm. That's why TO liked playing with Tim better.

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I'm just curious as to how the most drops-prone receiver in NFL history, one of the slowest WRs in NFL history, a poor route running WR according to scouts (and Owens himself, who called route running his weakness), is known as a great talent? A great talent who somehow underachieved despite finishing 2nd in NFL history in receiving yards and 3rd in history in receiving touchdowns.

 

He should be the inspiration for a football version of Rocky with how much he overachieved.

I see this guy hasn't been on in awhile, so I'll just hope he was the 1st person to ever get banned from the entire internet. Lmao he said TO was one of the slowest wrs ever and that he ran as well as the average defensive end. Billy you must've took too many hits to the head playing as rb for the Lions. It might be time to see a doctor or go for a career in stand-up comedy. You're hilarious.

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Gee I dunno. 1078 receptions 15,934 Yards and 153 TDs maybe? The guy may be a first class arsehat, but you don't get those numbers without talent.

Three years ago and it still stands.........STFU

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