BillySims

Why do people consider Terrell Owens so "talented?"

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It's pretty easy to tell that Matthews doesn't have the speed that his 40 time would indicate. He's a perfect example of 40 time not matching game speed. You don't have to see Aghalor and Maclin and Matthews running in an official race against one another to easily see that Aghalor and Maclin are easily faster than Matthews. And yes there are plenty of examples of this. Brian Westbrook is another example, but in the opposite direction. His sub par 40 time was not a true indicator of the speed he played with.

It's why 40 times are overrated. Because there never ever is a situation in a football game where a player starts from a 3 point stance and runs 40 yards in a straight line down field.

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Compared to professional NFL receivers, he was bottom tier in athletic ability. That's what the workout numbers show. They measured his athletic ability and it was sorely lacking for an NFL receiver.

No, workout numbers do NOT show athletic ability.  Not at all.

 

If the workout numbers were supposed to show someone's athletic ability, then it does it really poorly.  To the point where it's useless.  The exercises and drills used simply indicate a person's ability to excel at a specific feat unrelated to the sport of football.

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No, workout numbers do NOT show athletic ability.  Not at all.

 

If the workout numbers were supposed to show someone's athletic ability, then it does it really poorly.  To the point where it's useless.  The exercises and drills used simply indicate a person's ability to excel at a specific feat unrelated to the sport of football.

Interesting thing is, the OP is pretty much claiming owens gym and training time was wasted and pointless.

Came in the league dirt slow and stayed that way despite the workouts. Couldn't jump before working out, still couldn't after.

All that coaching did squat to improve his stone club like hands. According to the OP, the ONE THING TO learned/improved on, was his coaches told him to bump into people.

The OP is saying the work ethic was pointless because he never got better(because you are only better if your metrics are better), his coaching was wasted because he never learned to catch.

So we should all tell kids to stop working out, and just start bumping into people.

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No, workout numbers do NOT show athletic ability.  Not at all.

 

If the workout numbers were supposed to show someone's athletic ability, then it does it really poorly.  To the point where it's useless.  The exercises and drills used simply indicate a person's ability to excel at a specific feat unrelated to the sport of football.

 

..............Uh...........

 

Are you serious?

 

This is unbelievable.

 

Yeah, because what do speed tests, leaping ability tests, and agility tests, have to do with athletic ability?

 

All of these are extremely important to the sport of football. If they weren't, scouts wouldn't have been running them for DECADES. These guys get PAID to evaluate football talent. You're a fan. They know a helluva lot more about evaluating football talent than you do.

 

How can you even type this post and not run out of the room laughing at how asinine it is?

 

Someone call up Usain Bolt and tell him he's not a great athlete, because speed times don't show great athletic ability. I mean...you're not even trying now.

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Interesting thing is, the OP is pretty much claiming owens gym and training time was wasted and pointless.

Came in the league dirt slow and stayed that way despite the workouts. Couldn't jump before working out, still couldn't after.

All that coaching did squat to improve his stone club like hands. According to the OP, the ONE THING TO learned/improved on, was his coaches told him to bump into people.

The OP is saying the work ethic was pointless because he never got better(because you are only better if your metrics are better), his coaching was wasted because he never learned to catch.

So we should all tell kids to stop working out, and just start bumping into people.

 

You still can't even come up with anything that isn't completely nonsensical.

 

Owens worked out to enhance the one thing he could do anything about - his weight and strength. He couldn't change his speed (you can hire a speed coach to work on your running technique, but you can only make minimal improvements, and he'd already run track before coming into the league), he couldn't change his agility, he couldn't change his leaping ability.

 

Owens knew he was slow and listened to a strength and conditioning coach in college who preached to the players about "everything starting in the weight room."

 

It wasn't about "bumping into people." Christ. It was about getting his body weight up to 213-226 to be heavier than all the DBs he was facing. It was about getting stronger. It was about learning technique to get a good release at the line of scrimmage/escape the jam. It was about paying attention in the film room to learn how to adjust to different coverages.

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..............Uh...........

Are you serious?

This is unbelievable.

Yeah, because what do speed tests, leaping ability tests, and agility tests, have to do with athletic ability?

All of these are extremely important to the sport of football. If they weren't, scouts wouldn't have been running them for DECADES. These guys get PAID to evaluate football talent. You're a fan. They know a helluva lot more about evaluating football talent than you do.

How can you even type this post and not run out of the room laughing at how asinine it is?

Someone call up Usain Bolt and tell him he's not a great athlete, because speed times don't show great athletic ability. I mean...you're not even trying now.

You talkin football or track? Don't bring Usain Bolt into this, that's not what we're talking about. The 40 would be a good indicator of success since it's EXACTLY what he does.

Just like using a triple jump test is useful when trying to determine who might have a good shot at winning the gold medal in Triple Jump.

Just because the NFL combines have been using some tests for decades, doesn't mean they are accurate. (See: Moneyball). I don't claim to know a fraction of what scouts know about evaluating talent, but I do know one thing...professional talent scouts are heroes if they can hit on one out of every three picks. If combines were so helpful, that stat would go up. Drastically.

Speed tests, like running the 40, means a track coach helped you develop a form and technique not used in the NFL to help you run a fast 40. That's all. There's a LOT more than a 40 time to become a football player. Ask Al Davis.

Leaping tests mean that someone can leap far. Nothing more.

So called agility tests? It means someone got coached to excel at a test that doesn't mean anything to determine if a college athlete will be a successful football player.

Has anyone blown up the combines, come out of nowhere and killed it in the NFL? I know guys like Mamula tricked teams (namely the Eagles) into moving way up in the draft, but has anyone succeeded just based on shocking teams at the combines?

No.

You are right, NFL scouts have forgotten more about how to select a prospect than I'll ever know, but the fact that you continue to ignore career achievements over a long period of time playing for different teams and QBs and systems because some MEANINGLESS metric compels you to judge him based on conjecture is asinine. It's why you are being laughed at the entire time.

TO should be a first ballot hall of famer because he was amazingly talented and a true NFL player. To argue anything else because of irrelevant metrics makes you look stubbornly blind. You simply cannot be Top 5 in all meaningful WR records and not be talented in the NFL. To argue otherwise is pointless. Its like trying to prove the world is flat today!

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You said, "No, workout numbers do NOT show athletic ability.  Not at all."

 

That's an absolutely laughable thing to say.

 

If you want to say they don't pertain to football, that's also ridiculous.

 

Now, if you want to say that not performing well in them doesn't mean you won't be a good player, then that's true. Owens himself is proof of that. But when people talk about a football player's "talent," they are talking about his athletic ability. And his athletic ability is measured in the aforementioned tests.

 

This thread is not about whether or not Owens was a good football player. This thread is about whether or not he was "talented." People do not use the word "talented" based just on who performs well . Nobody would ever have called Wes Welker "a great talent." Nobody would ever say he somehow "wasted his talent." Nobody thinks this 5'8" midget with 4.7 speed was "a great talent." But he, with enormous help from the system he was in and Tom Brady, made something of himself that absolutely nobody expected.

 

But with Owens, people talk about what a "monster"/"freak"/"waste of talent"/"phenom"/"athlete" he was...because people think Owens was a great athlete relative to his peers. Except he wasn't. This is a mistaken belief. Owens was a limited, blue collar player.

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Yes, limited.

 

From Chris Mortensen:

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Mchf-qXRZhEJ:espn.go.com/chrismortensen/s/2003/0927/1624760.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

MORT -- Tony, I really believe the 49ers will turn this around. Their O-line is so beat up, and that's creating the various problems they're having right now. It is interesting that I've had a few very good NFL minds tell me that Terrell Owens is not as good against man coverage as he is zone. He doesn't have blazing speed, you know. That 12-4 record is a little ambitious, though. I think their defense is terrific.

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Lol where there we have it, some random quote from Mort relaying what some random "NFL mind" told him. And who is claiming that TO has "blazing speed"? That's certainly I never said. He didn't have blazing speed. Good speed for sure, but not blazing.

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TO called Bradford a coward hahaha

TO :flex:

For basically doing same thing he did? Signing a big contract and then immediately wanting out and thtowing a hissy fit? That's rich...

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Unlike Samantha Bradford, TO had a legit reason. Dude was the best player on the team

 

Different situations, but TOs act was still immaturity and irresponsibility on an exceptional level. Honestly, TO had a hell of a lot less to gripe about than Sam. He was the toast of the town and the team at the time. He was being well compensated for the going rate at the time. What was his legit reason? Just because he was exceptionally talented shouldn't give him a pass for being a jacka***.  Great player, but horrible professional and teammate. He really has no room to comment on these matters. It just shows how delusional he is.

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Lol where there we have it, some random quote from Mort relaying what some random "NFL mind" told him. And who is claiming that TO has "blazing speed"? That's certainly I never said. He didn't have blazing speed. Good speed for sure, but not blazing.

 

Christ. You think he just noted that to be taken as literally, "he doesn't have blazing speed?" Mortensen's statement clearly is meant to say that Owens LACKS speed. It's like when someone says, "I'm not great at this." Nobody goes, "Oh, so you mean you're not great at this, but you're GOOD at this?"

 

Of course not. When you say you're not great at something, you mean it's a weakness.

 

Mortensen was saying a few NFL minds told him Owens's speed is a weakness, and he's not that good against man coverage because of that. It's clear as day from the context. Mortensen was saying that despite Owens's reputation as an elite receiver, NFL scouts were telling him he was a limited player.

 

Now, what are the chances these people he talked to were the same ones saying, "I never saw the talent" years later?

 

You guys are just grasping at straws at this point. It's clear NFL personnel experts do not consider Owens to have been a great talent.

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Amazing that a guy who is "slow as molasses" as you put it, who has bad hands, who can't jump, who lacks agility and quickness, who lacked talent, who basically the only thing going for him was size, could amass all the stats he did.

Receivers with the attributes you ascribe to TO don't dominate the way he did. In fact receivers with those attributes don't even make it to the league, let alone be a starter, let alone be an all star.

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Different situations, but TOs act was still immaturity and irresponsibility on an exceptional level. Honestly, TO had a hell of a lot less to gripe about than Sam. He was the toast of the town and the team at the time. He was being well compensated for the going rate at the time. What was his legit reason? Just because he was exceptionally talented shouldn't give him a pass for being a jacka***.  Great player, but horrible professional and teammate. He really has no room to comment on these matters. It just shows how delusional he is.

 

He wasn't even one of the 10 highest paid receivers for 2005. You people keep forgetting that he was supposed to be a free agent and missed out on that because his agent didn't file the paperwork on time. His agent tried to cover his own a** and convinced him to sign the contract with Philadelphia because they were in a rush to get it done before the arbitrator ruled on the grievance. He was upset he'd lost out on money because of that.

 

Owens's point about Bradford is that he's running away from competition, not that he wants out. To Owens, asking for a trade because of competition at the position is something he can not fathom because it goes against his very nature.

 

He wasn't exceptionally talented, which is the point of this thread. He was the greatest overachiever in the history of sports. He went 89th overall. Sam Bradford went #1 overall.

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Amazing that a guy who is "slow as molasses" as you put it, who has bad hands, who can't jump, who lacks agility and quickness, who lacked talent, who basically the only thing going for him was size, could amass all the stats he did.

Receivers with the attributes you ascribe to TO don't dominate the way he did. In fact receivers with those attributes don't even make it to the league, let alone be a starter, let alone be an all star.

 

WHICH is EXACTLY WHY he was such an overachiever.

 

Face it. You can't find a play of him out-running anyone who runs better than 4.7 in the 40 yard dash. His drop problems are well-known. His route running mediocrity is well-known. His poor vertical leap performance is available for all to see.

 

He was tall, he worked harder than anyone on his physique, and he absorbed all the coaching he received.

 

Offensive coaches schemed to get him the ball, he paid attention to the adjustments he needed to make based on the coverages, he paid attention to the proper technique to use to get a good release at the line of scrimmage, and he was extremely difficult to bring down after the catch because he was 226 pounds of determination and good strength vs. 185 pound corners, most of whom are lousy tacklers who can be exposed by any player with power/determination. There's a video on Youtube of the old Broncos offensive line coach, Alex Gibbs, talking about how piss-poor corners are at tackling, and how they would deliberately leave them unblocked and block safeties instead.

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WHICH is EXACTLY WHY he was such an overachiever.

 

Face it. You can't find a play of him out-running anyone who runs better than 4.7 in the 40 yard dash. His drop problems are well-known. His route running mediocrity is well-known. His poor vertical leap performance is available for all to see.

 

He was tall, he worked harder than anyone on his physique, and he absorbed all the coaching he received.

 

Offensive coaches schemed to get him the ball, he paid attention to the adjustments he needed to make based on the coverages, he paid attention to the proper technique to use to get a good release at the line of scrimmage, and he was extremely difficult to bring down after the catch because he was 226 pounds of determination and good strength vs. 185 pound corners, most of whom are lousy tacklers who can be exposed by any player with power/determination. There's a video on Youtube of the old Broncos offensive line coach, Alex Gibbs, talking about how piss-poor corners are at tackling, and how they would deliberately leave them unblocked and block safeties instead.

How the hell are you saying he absorbed all his coaching, when the easiest thing to coach is a proper route? And you really can't make adjustments to routes unless you're actually running the routes correctly to begin with. If he was such an easy mark in man coverage, why did they routinely give him ten yard cushions?

Nothing you say makes a lick of sense. A talentless TO dominated league stats soley through strength work outs, in a sport dominated by guys who lived in weight rooms since childhood. He absorbed coaching yet never improved in a single coachable aspect of his game. He was dominated by man coverage, but man corners routinely backed off him in fear.

Nothing you've said so far in this entire thread has any correlation with observable reality.

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There's a difference between a route being "proper" and a route being "good." Owens lacked the agility and quickness to separate with cuts, so he had to find other ways to get open. He mastered release technique and learned from his coaches how to read zone and make adjustments to get open. He even mentioned himself that when he played in San Francisco, he'd frequently ad-lib to get open once Garcia abandoned the pocket. He paid attention to his coaches and knew how to get open without needing to be fast, quick, or agile.

 

Yeah, they sometimes gave him cushions because if you played press on him, you risked him using his technique at the line of scrimmage to shove you aside and get instant separation as a result. Just ask Anthony Henry.

 

Which players were living in the weight room? Todd Pinkston? Mike Williams? Dwayne Jarrett?

 

Who put in the work and should have been better than Owens but wasn't?

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WHICH is EXACTLY WHY he was such an overachiever.

 

Um no.  It would literally be IMPOSSIBLE for Owens to even be a good starter, let alone a perennial all star based on how you describe his attributes. 

His career is littered with big huge plays which would have been impossible to do if he was as slow and un-athletic as you claim he is.  Period.

Were you asleep for 2004 and 2005 when he made all those plays for us?  Do you not remember all the deep bombs he caught in 2004?  All the big catch and runs? Do you not remember him juking Champ Bailey out of his shoes and taking a screen pass 90 yard TD? 

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I've broken down some of those passes he caught in 04 in this thread. As for that Champ Bailey play, Bailey was playing with a bad hamstring and after he missed, there was nobody else around Owens and he had the open field to himself. I guess they figured Owens was so slow that even with a bad hamstring, Bailey didn't need any help over the top.

 

Pretty much all of Owens's big plays were either him throwing a corner aside at the line of scrimmage to get separation down field on him, pushing off down field, or breaking tackles after the catch.

 

There were probably 100 receivers every year in the league faster than Owens, but only 5 or 6 who weighed as much or more.

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lol yup every big play it was either against someone slow, someone with a bad hamstring, etc... Yup Owens just ran over everyone, never out running everyone, every time......ay yi yi......

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Overachiever would be someone taken in like the 6th or 7th routdoor. And there is videos of TO all over the Internet blowing the doors off defenders and dunking all over the place basketball and the goal post effortlessly

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