BillySims

Why do people consider Terrell Owens so "talented?"

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On 10/19/2017 at 4:25 PM, birdman#12 said:

Being a pro athlete is a combination of a number of characteristics........the more you have, the the higher the likelihood of becoming a pro......in any sport.

Talent

Work ethic

Perseverance

Physical strength

Intelligence, ability to learn

Emotional intelligence

Self confidence.

They all come in different levels, but it's the ones that can develop those levels higher and overcome the shortcomings in other areas that are successful  The ones that have high levels in all of them are the ones that usually end up as stars or in the HOF.

Dismissing a guy like Owens as just an overachiever or a guy with average talent is shortsighted and ridiculous.

Talent means the "natural aptitude or skill."

Therefore all all of these things are potentially a form of talent. I may be a talented person at networking and dealing with individuals, emotional intelligence. I may be naturally a confident person that I can stand up to the pressure of a stage and perform, Self confidence. I may be able to naturally learn the playbook quickly, and realise the weaknesses of my current opponent so I can exploit them, intelligence, and ability to learn. I have the natural mental drive that others may not have to succeed, work ethic and perseverance.

Physical talent is only one aspect of the game, what makes a footballer great is by having more of these talents than other players and being able to overcome your weaknesses.

Edited by mihailo
delete Jerry Rice time

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1 hour ago, mihailo said:

 

Talent means the "natural aptitude or skill."

Therefore all all of these things are potentially a form of talent. I may be a talented person at networking and dealing with individuals, emotional intelligence. I may be naturally a confident person that I can stand up to the pressure of a stage and perform, Self confidence. I may be able to naturally learn the playbook quickly, and realise the weaknesses of my current opponent so I can exploit them, intelligence, and ability to learn. I have the natural mental drive that others may not have to succeed, work ethic and perseverance.

Physical talent is only one aspect of the game, what makes a footballer great is by having more of these talents than other players and being able to overcome your weaknesses. It was mentioned that TO had a poor 40 time and therefore he lacked talent, well so did Jerry Rice... (4.71 seconds)

I meant athletic talent.....a natural athlete.  I understand that many on that list can be described as talent.  It doesn't mean natural football talent, just the ability to perform a variety of athletic functions.  Athletic ability can be taught to some degree, which is why some players can play the game without being "natural athletes".

 

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2 hours ago, birdman#12 said:

I meant athletic talent.....a natural athlete.  I understand that many on that list can be described as talent.  It doesn't mean natural football talent, just the ability to perform a variety of athletic functions.  Athletic ability can be taught to some degree, which is why some players can play the game without being "natural athletes".

 

Yeah, I wasn't refuting your point. Just adding to it how I saw fit to give a different perspective to the OP.

I agree with your point of athletic ability, and believe to the degree that TO achieved in football that it could not be accomplished through a lack of talent.

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5 hours ago, mihailo said:

 

Talent means the "natural aptitude or skill."

Therefore all all of these things are potentially a form of talent. I may be a talented person at networking and dealing with individuals, emotional intelligence. I may be naturally a confident person that I can stand up to the pressure of a stage and perform, Self confidence. I may be able to naturally learn the playbook quickly, and realise the weaknesses of my current opponent so I can exploit them, intelligence, and ability to learn. I have the natural mental drive that others may not have to succeed, work ethic and perseverance.

Physical talent is only one aspect of the game, what makes a footballer great is by having more of these talents than other players and being able to overcome your weaknesses. It was mentioned that TO had a poor 40 time and therefore he lacked talent, well so did Jerry Rice... (4.71 seconds)

Jerry Rice didn't run a 4.71. That's an internet myth. The times people actually got on him ranged anywhere from 4.4 to 4.6. 

Rice was WAY more talented than Owens, yet nobody talks about what an incredible talent Rice was, because it's generally accepted that he was a hard-working overachiever. 

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45 minutes ago, BillySims said:

Jerry Rice didn't run a 4.71. That's an internet myth. The times people actually got on him ranged anywhere from 4.4 to 4.6. 

Rice was WAY more talented than Owens, yet nobody talks about what an incredible talent Rice was, because it's generally accepted that he was a hard-working overachiever. 

Do you monitor this board just to see replies in this thread? That's odd.

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56 minutes ago, BillySims said:

Jerry Rice didn't run a 4.71. That's an internet myth. The times people actually got on him ranged anywhere from 4.4 to 4.6. 

Rice was WAY more talented than Owens, yet nobody talks about what an incredible talent Rice was, because it's generally accepted that he was a hard-working overachiever. 

Even so it isn't that relevant, now answer to the rest of the point made.

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20 minutes ago, mihailo said:

Even so it isn't that relevant, now answer to the rest of the point made.

No he ignores certain posts. Especially ones that dont fit his agenda. Like when Owens even said himself that his 40 time was off because he wasn't prepared for it and tired because of running track and playing basketball. Cause the NFL always takes guys slow as hell in the 3rd round. 

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30 minutes ago, bwestbrook36 said:

No he ignores certain posts. Especially ones that dont fit his agenda. Like when Owens even said himself that his 40 time was off because he wasn't prepared for it and tired because of running track and playing basketball. Cause the NFL always takes guys slow as hell in the 3rd round. 

I deleted the Jerry Rice time from my post, so he can respond to the rest of the post instead.

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On 10/26/2017 at 5:57 PM, mihailo said:

Even so it isn't that relevant, now answer to the rest of the point made.

When people use the word talent, they're referring to the things I already listed. The people who call Terrell Owens "so talented" think he is great in those areas relative to his peers, when in reality, he was not.

That's the whole argument. Terrell Owens was barely able to beat the Dancing With the Stars Maksim whatever his name is guy in a sprint in "The Superstars" back in 2009. He has brick hands. His change-of-direction is terrible. He had a 33-inch vertical jump, which is poor for an NFL receiver. He's not naturally strong, as he came out of high school a twig and had to lie in the weight room in order to put on muscle, and even with all that work, all he managed to do was tie Michael Westbrook (Redskins receiver) in the bench press at the 2000 Superstars competition.

 

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On 10/26/2017 at 6:22 PM, bwestbrook36 said:

No he ignores certain posts. Especially ones that dont fit his agenda. Like when Owens even said himself that his 40 time was off because he wasn't prepared for it and tired because of running track and playing basketball. Cause the NFL always takes guys slow as hell in the 3rd round. 

He said he was too tired to run a good 40-yard-dash because of warming the bench in college basketball (he couldn't even start/barely got any playing time for a division 1-AA team)? Frickin' please.

Owens was a three time all-conference selection taken late 3rd round. He was taken for size and production by a team that didn't care about receiver speed, since they ran the West Coast Offense and valued bigger receivers much more to catch the possession routes. 

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34 minutes ago, BillySims said:

He said he was too tired to run a good 40-yard-dash because of warming the bench in college basketball (he couldn't even start/barely got any playing time for a division 1-AA team)? Frickin' please.

Owens was a three time all-conference selection taken late 3rd round. He was taken for size and production by a team that didn't care about receiver speed, since they ran the West Coast Offense and valued bigger receivers much more to catch the possession routes. 

Why is this issue so important to you?  It is bizarre.

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5 hours ago, BillySims said:

When people use the word talent, they're referring to the things I already listed. The people who call Terrell Owens "so talented" think he is great in those areas relative to his peers, when in reality, he was not.

That's the whole argument. Terrell Owens was barely able to beat the Dancing With the Stars Maksim whatever his name is guy in a sprint in "The Superstars" back in 2009. He has brick hands. His change-of-direction is terrible. He had a 33-inch vertical jump, which is poor for an NFL receiver. He's not naturally strong, as he came out of high school a twig and had to lie in the weight room in order to put on muscle, and even with all that work, all he managed to do was tie Michael Westbrook (Redskins receiver) in the bench press at the 2000 Superstars competition.

 

Ok, so he isn't maybe the most physically talented individual, but he is talented in his ability to understand the game, talented mental makeup that gave him the drive to improve and capitalise on his lack of physical talents. Clearly he was talented enough in physical abilities to do what he accomplished, but wasn't a freak physically.

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On 11/2/2017 at 3:03 PM, BillySims said:

When people use the word talent, they're referring to the things I already listed. The people who call Terrell Owens "so talented" think he is great in those areas relative to his peers, when in reality, he was not.

That's the whole argument. Terrell Owens was barely able to beat the Dancing With the Stars Maksim whatever his name is guy in a sprint in "The Superstars" back in 2009. He has brick hands. His change-of-direction is terrible. He had a 33-inch vertical jump, which is poor for an NFL receiver. He's not naturally strong, as he came out of high school a twig and had to lie in the weight room in order to put on muscle, and even with all that work, all he managed to do was tie Michael Westbrook (Redskins receiver) in the bench press at the 2000 Superstars competition.

 

Yet he was able to compile the following career stats:

  • Fifth all time TDs, any kind, passing/rushing/receiving
  • Eighth all time receiving yards
    • Only player in NFL history to score a TD against all 32 NFL teams
    • Only player in NFL history to score two or more touchdowns against all 32 NFL teams
    • Only player in NFL history to have an 800-yard receiving season with 5 different teams (Cincinnati BengalsBuffalo BillsDallas CowboysPhiladelphia EaglesSan Francisco 49ers)
    • Only player in NFL history to have a 150-yard receiving game with 5 different teams (Cincinnati Bengals, Buffalo Bills, Dallas Cowboys, Philadelphia Eagles, San Francisco 49ers)
    • Only player in NFL history to have a 200-yard receiving game with 3 different teams (Cincinnati Bengals, Dallas Cowboys, San Francisco 49ers)
    • Oldest player to accumulate 200 combined yards/receiving yards/yards from scrimmage in a single game (36 years, 300 days)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 6 touchdowns, 2000–2010 (11) – tied with Marvin Harrison 1996–2006, Jerry Rice 1986–1996, Don Hutson 1935–1945
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 5 touchdown receptions, 2000–2010 (11) – tied with Marvin Harrison 1996–2006, Cris Carter 1991–2001, Tim Brown 1991–2001, Jerry Rice 1986–1996, Don Hutson 1935–1945
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 5 touchdowns, 2000–2010 (11) – tied with Frank Gore 2006-2016, Marvin Harrison 1996–2006, Cris Carter 1991–2001, Tim Brown 1991–2001, Jerry Rice 1986–1996, Don Hutson 1935–1945
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 4 touchdown receptions, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 4 touchdowns, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 3 touchdown receptions, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 3 touchdowns, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 700 receiving yards, 1996–2010 (15) - tied with Tony Gonzalez, 1999-2013
    • One of seven players to have at least 2 receptions of 90+ yards (John TaylorMike QuickGaynell TinsleySteve WatsonWillard Dewveall, and Mike Wallace)
    • One of 12 players to have at least 2 offensive TDs of 90+ yards

 

  • 5th player to reach 150 touchdowns
  • 6th player to reach 1,000 career receptions, 6th player to reach 100 touchdown receptions, 6th player to reach 14,000 receiving yards
  • 3rd player to reach 150 touchdown receptions, 3rd player to reach 15,000 receiving yards
  • Through 15 seasons, has 156 total touchdowns (153 receiving), 15,934 receiving yards, 1,078 receptions, 39 rushing attempts, 251 rushing yards, 3 rushing touchdowns, 5 kickoff returns, 23 kickoff return yards, 2 fumble recoveries, 13 fumble return yards, and 3 two-point conversions
  • Averaged one touchdown per game in 2001, 2004, and 2007[90]
  • Has had nine 1,000 yard seasons, including five consecutive (2000–2004)[90]
  • Reached 100 catches in only 14 games in 2002[90]
  • Led League in receiving touchdowns in 2001, 2002, and 2006[91]
  • Third all-time in regular season receiving touchdowns behind Jerry Rice and Randy Moss
  • Second all-time in regular season receiving yards behind Jerry Rice.
  • Eighth all-time in regular season receptions behind Jerry RiceTony GonzalezMarvin HarrisonCris CarterTim BrownLarry Fitzgerald, and Jason Witten[92]

Career milestones

  • Most combined yards/receiving yards/yards from scrimmage in a single game by a player over age 30: 222 (10/3/10 vs Cleveland Browns) (Week 4)

Bengals franchise records

Bills franchise records

  • Most consecutive games with a receiving touchdown: 7 (2007). Record shared with Franklin Clarke (1961–1962), Bob Hayes (1965–1966) and Dez Bryant (2012)[88]
  • Most touchdown receptions in a single game: 4 (11/18/07 vs Washington Redskins). Record shared with Bob Hayes (12/20/70)
  • Most receiving yards per game, career: 76.3 (2006–2008)

Cowboys franchise records

  • Most receiving touchdowns in a single season: 14 (2004)[87]
  • Most receiving yards per game, season: 109.0 (2005) 763 in 7 games.

Eagles franchise records

49ers franchise records I think you need to re-evaluate your definition of talent.  I suppose if he met your criteria, he would have had a faster 40, softer hands, but would have been a failure as an NFL WR.  I think he’ll be content missing out on your criteria of talent and rest on his laurels...which you have to admit are pretty impressive.

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1 hour ago, Vee said:

 

Yet he was able to compile the following career stats:

  • Fifth all time TDs, any kind, passing/rushing/receiving
  • Eighth all time receiving yards
    • Only player in NFL history to score a TD against all 32 NFL teams
    • Only player in NFL history to score two or more touchdowns against all 32 NFL teams
    • Only player in NFL history to have an 800-yard receiving season with 5 different teams (Cincinnati BengalsBuffalo BillsDallas CowboysPhiladelphia EaglesSan Francisco 49ers)
    • Only player in NFL history to have a 150-yard receiving game with 5 different teams (Cincinnati Bengals, Buffalo Bills, Dallas Cowboys, Philadelphia Eagles, San Francisco 49ers)
    • Only player in NFL history to have a 200-yard receiving game with 3 different teams (Cincinnati Bengals, Dallas Cowboys, San Francisco 49ers)
    • Oldest player to accumulate 200 combined yards/receiving yards/yards from scrimmage in a single game (36 years, 300 days)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 6 touchdowns, 2000–2010 (11) – tied with Marvin Harrison 1996–2006, Jerry Rice 1986–1996, Don Hutson 1935–1945
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 5 touchdown receptions, 2000–2010 (11) – tied with Marvin Harrison 1996–2006, Cris Carter 1991–2001, Tim Brown 1991–2001, Jerry Rice 1986–1996, Don Hutson 1935–1945
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 5 touchdowns, 2000–2010 (11) – tied with Frank Gore 2006-2016, Marvin Harrison 1996–2006, Cris Carter 1991–2001, Tim Brown 1991–2001, Jerry Rice 1986–1996, Don Hutson 1935–1945
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 4 touchdown receptions, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 4 touchdowns, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 3 touchdown receptions, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 3 touchdowns, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 700 receiving yards, 1996–2010 (15) - tied with Tony Gonzalez, 1999-2013
    • One of seven players to have at least 2 receptions of 90+ yards (John TaylorMike QuickGaynell TinsleySteve WatsonWillard Dewveall, and Mike Wallace)
    • One of 12 players to have at least 2 offensive TDs of 90+ yards

 

  • 5th player to reach 150 touchdowns
  • 6th player to reach 1,000 career receptions, 6th player to reach 100 touchdown receptions, 6th player to reach 14,000 receiving yards
  • 3rd player to reach 150 touchdown receptions, 3rd player to reach 15,000 receiving yards
  • Through 15 seasons, has 156 total touchdowns (153 receiving), 15,934 receiving yards, 1,078 receptions, 39 rushing attempts, 251 rushing yards, 3 rushing touchdowns, 5 kickoff returns, 23 kickoff return yards, 2 fumble recoveries, 13 fumble return yards, and 3 two-point conversions
  • Averaged one touchdown per game in 2001, 2004, and 2007[90]
  • Has had nine 1,000 yard seasons, including five consecutive (2000–2004)[90]
  • Reached 100 catches in only 14 games in 2002[90]
  • Led League in receiving touchdowns in 2001, 2002, and 2006[91]
  • Third all-time in regular season receiving touchdowns behind Jerry Rice and Randy Moss
  • Second all-time in regular season receiving yards behind Jerry Rice.
  • Eighth all-time in regular season receptions behind Jerry RiceTony GonzalezMarvin HarrisonCris CarterTim BrownLarry Fitzgerald, and Jason Witten[92]

Career milestones

  • Most combined yards/receiving yards/yards from scrimmage in a single game by a player over age 30: 222 (10/3/10 vs Cleveland Browns) (Week 4)

Bengals franchise records

Bills franchise records

  • Most consecutive games with a receiving touchdown: 7 (2007). Record shared with Franklin Clarke (1961–1962), Bob Hayes (1965–1966) and Dez Bryant (2012)[88]
  • Most touchdown receptions in a single game: 4 (11/18/07 vs Washington Redskins). Record shared with Bob Hayes (12/20/70)
  • Most receiving yards per game, career: 76.3 (2006–2008)

Cowboys franchise records

  • Most receiving touchdowns in a single season: 14 (2004)[87]
  • Most receiving yards per game, season: 109.0 (2005) 763 in 7 games.

Eagles franchise records

49ers franchise records I think you need to re-evaluate your definition of talent.  I suppose if he met your criteria, he would have had a faster 40, softer hands, but would have been a failure as an NFL WR.  I think he’ll be content missing out on your criteria of talent and rest on his laurels...which you have to admit are pretty impressive.

All that is apparently because he tried real hard.

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Had the precision and feet of Jerry Rice and the body of Anquan Boldin.  So he didn't have great hands, speed or vertical but his strengths were ++++.

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On 11/4/2017 at 3:43 PM, Vee said:

 

Yet he was able to compile the following career stats:

  • Fifth all time TDs, any kind, passing/rushing/receiving
  • Eighth all time receiving yards
    • Only player in NFL history to score a TD against all 32 NFL teams
    • Only player in NFL history to score two or more touchdowns against all 32 NFL teams
    • Only player in NFL history to have an 800-yard receiving season with 5 different teams (Cincinnati BengalsBuffalo BillsDallas CowboysPhiladelphia EaglesSan Francisco 49ers)
    • Only player in NFL history to have a 150-yard receiving game with 5 different teams (Cincinnati Bengals, Buffalo Bills, Dallas Cowboys, Philadelphia Eagles, San Francisco 49ers)
    • Only player in NFL history to have a 200-yard receiving game with 3 different teams (Cincinnati Bengals, Dallas Cowboys, San Francisco 49ers)
    • Oldest player to accumulate 200 combined yards/receiving yards/yards from scrimmage in a single game (36 years, 300 days)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 6 touchdowns, 2000–2010 (11) – tied with Marvin Harrison 1996–2006, Jerry Rice 1986–1996, Don Hutson 1935–1945
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 5 touchdown receptions, 2000–2010 (11) – tied with Marvin Harrison 1996–2006, Cris Carter 1991–2001, Tim Brown 1991–2001, Jerry Rice 1986–1996, Don Hutson 1935–1945
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 5 touchdowns, 2000–2010 (11) – tied with Frank Gore 2006-2016, Marvin Harrison 1996–2006, Cris Carter 1991–2001, Tim Brown 1991–2001, Jerry Rice 1986–1996, Don Hutson 1935–1945
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 4 touchdown receptions, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 4 touchdowns, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 3 touchdown receptions, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 3 touchdowns, 1996–2010 (15)
    • Consecutive seasons with at least 700 receiving yards, 1996–2010 (15) - tied with Tony Gonzalez, 1999-2013
    • One of seven players to have at least 2 receptions of 90+ yards (John TaylorMike QuickGaynell TinsleySteve WatsonWillard Dewveall, and Mike Wallace)
    • One of 12 players to have at least 2 offensive TDs of 90+ yards

 

  • 5th player to reach 150 touchdowns
  • 6th player to reach 1,000 career receptions, 6th player to reach 100 touchdown receptions, 6th player to reach 14,000 receiving yards
  • 3rd player to reach 150 touchdown receptions, 3rd player to reach 15,000 receiving yards
  • Through 15 seasons, has 156 total touchdowns (153 receiving), 15,934 receiving yards, 1,078 receptions, 39 rushing attempts, 251 rushing yards, 3 rushing touchdowns, 5 kickoff returns, 23 kickoff return yards, 2 fumble recoveries, 13 fumble return yards, and 3 two-point conversions
  • Averaged one touchdown per game in 2001, 2004, and 2007[90]
  • Has had nine 1,000 yard seasons, including five consecutive (2000–2004)[90]
  • Reached 100 catches in only 14 games in 2002[90]
  • Led League in receiving touchdowns in 2001, 2002, and 2006[91]
  • Third all-time in regular season receiving touchdowns behind Jerry Rice and Randy Moss
  • Second all-time in regular season receiving yards behind Jerry Rice.
  • Eighth all-time in regular season receptions behind Jerry RiceTony GonzalezMarvin HarrisonCris CarterTim BrownLarry Fitzgerald, and Jason Witten[92]

Career milestones

  • Most combined yards/receiving yards/yards from scrimmage in a single game by a player over age 30: 222 (10/3/10 vs Cleveland Browns) (Week 4)

Bengals franchise records

Bills franchise records

  • Most consecutive games with a receiving touchdown: 7 (2007). Record shared with Franklin Clarke (1961–1962), Bob Hayes (1965–1966) and Dez Bryant (2012)[88]
  • Most touchdown receptions in a single game: 4 (11/18/07 vs Washington Redskins). Record shared with Bob Hayes (12/20/70)
  • Most receiving yards per game, career: 76.3 (2006–2008)

Cowboys franchise records

  • Most receiving touchdowns in a single season: 14 (2004)[87]
  • Most receiving yards per game, season: 109.0 (2005) 763 in 7 games.

Eagles franchise records

49ers franchise records I think you need to re-evaluate your definition of talent.  I suppose if he met your criteria, he would have had a faster 40, softer hands, but would have been a failure as an NFL WR.  I think he’ll be content missing out on your criteria of talent and rest on his laurels...which you have to admit are pretty impressive.

It's not just my definition of talent; it's everyone's. People in here are trying to redefine the meaning of the word from what everyone, including all of you, had already agreed on long ago.

Here's a scout saying Johnny Manziel was more talented than Drew Brees: http://profootballzone.com/nfl/scout-johnny-manziel-talented-drew-brees/

Obviously, nobody in his right mind would ever say Manziel was better than Brees. But in terms of talent, this scout had him ahead. So all the numbers are meaningless when it comes to "talent," because that's not what people mean when they use the word.

 

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14 hours ago, dawkins4prez said:

Had the precision and feet of Jerry Rice and the body of Anquan Boldin.  So he didn't have great hands, speed or vertical but his strengths were ++++.

No he didn't. Owens was well below average for an NFL receiver in terms of footwork. The scouts always noted how slow out of his breaks Owens was. 

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12 hours ago, BillySims said:

It's not just my definition of talent; it's everyone's. People in here are trying to redefine the meaning of the word from what everyone, including all of you, had already agreed on long ago.

Here's a scout saying Johnny Manziel was more talented than Drew Brees: http://profootballzone.com/nfl/scout-johnny-manziel-talented-drew-brees/

Obviously, nobody in his right mind would ever say Manziel was better than Brees. But in terms of talent, this scout had him ahead. So all the numbers are meaningless when it comes to "talent," because that's not what people mean when they use the word.

 

And I rest my case.  One (probably former) NFL scout believed that Manziel was more talented than Drew Brees based on....whatever it is he wants to base his purely subjective opinion on his delivery, fluidity, or whatever other garbage you want to argue over...because it's always doing to be subjective.  There can be no definitive answer on how someone gauges someones talents.  BillySims wants to base it on some stats a player amasses at a combine, or a quote from an equally qualified scout.  

BillySims, the argument you have been trying to make over and over and over again would be sports talk radio gold.  You could take calls on this for weeks.  At the end of the day, once you eliminate records and achievements there is no correct answer, because you'll never find the smoking gun.  There is no solid argument you can make without relying on the opinions of flawed and biased human beings.  

You can continue to quote scouts, and so-called experts, but ultimately you are trying to build a case on other people's opinions.  Then you use statistics that deft the very records he amassed over an amazing career.  He is in the Top Ten of nearly (if not every) record a WR dreams they could own.  It's because he was every bit as talented as his peers in those record books.  No jealous scout, teammate, or stat from 1996 can prove otherwise.  You're trying to prove a point that goes against solid and irreftable fact.  He simply is in the top ten of too many career records to discount his talent in any way.  

I know you'll never come to terms with that, but unfortunately there is just too much evidence after the fact.

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On 11/6/2017 at 10:24 AM, Vee said:

And I rest my case.  One (probably former) NFL scout believed that Manziel was more talented than Drew Brees based on....whatever it is he wants to base his purely subjective opinion on his delivery, fluidity, or whatever other garbage you want to argue over...because it's always doing to be subjective.  There can be no definitive answer on how someone gauges someones talents.  BillySims wants to base it on some stats a player amasses at a combine, or a quote from an equally qualified scout.  

BillySims, the argument you have been trying to make over and over and over again would be sports talk radio gold.  You could take calls on this for weeks.  At the end of the day, once you eliminate records and achievements there is no correct answer, because you'll never find the smoking gun.  There is no solid argument you can make without relying on the opinions of flawed and biased human beings.  

You can continue to quote scouts, and so-called experts, but ultimately you are trying to build a case on other people's opinions.  Then you use statistics that deft the very records he amassed over an amazing career.  He is in the Top Ten of nearly (if not every) record a WR dreams they could own.  It's because he was every bit as talented as his peers in those record books.  No jealous scout, teammate, or stat from 1996 can prove otherwise.  You're trying to prove a point that goes against solid and irreftable fact.  He simply is in the top ten of too many career records to discount his talent in any way.  

I know you'll never come to terms with that, but unfortunately there is just too much evidence after the fact.

No, there are also numbers involved. Combine numbers, drops numbers. NFL production statistics measure performance, but they don't measure talent. 

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On 11/16/2017 at 9:12 PM, BillySims said:

No, there are also numbers involved. Combine numbers, drops numbers. NFL production statistics measure performance, but they don't measure talent. 

I think I’m hanging my hat on that fact that you cannot get to the performance all of the records TO has without significant talent.

You’re going to now try to downplay the amount of talent he has relative to his peers and that’s where we lose each other.

 

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56 minutes ago, Vee said:

I think I’m hanging my hat on that fact that you cannot get to the performance all of the records TO has without significant talent.

You’re going to now try to downplay the amount of talent he has relative to his peers and that’s where we lose each other.

 

Well there is wr with worse combines then TO but he is the only one that didn't have the talent the other guys did. 

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Odd thread. Havent read it all, but do I understand the op to have said, Owens and Rice are overachievers, while Mamula was talented? 

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17 minutes ago, jfluke said:

Odd thread. Havent read it all, but do I understand the op to have said, Owens and Rice are overachievers, while Mamula was talented? 

To be fair to Mamula, he wasn't horrible. He averaged a little over 6 sacks per year (31.5 over 6 years). He just wasn't 1st round worthy and could never have lived up to the expectations of being the 7th pick in the draft. He was more of a supporting cast member, never suited to be the leading man.

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15 minutes ago, VaBeach_Eagle said:

To be fair to Mamula, he wasn't horrible. He averaged a little over 6 sacks per year (31.5 over 6 years). He just wasn't 1st round worthy and could never have lived up to the expectations of being the 7th pick in the draft. He was more of a supporting cast member, never suited to be the leading man.

No, not really dogging Mamula. Just the perception that he was talented, while 2 of the greatest WRs ever were not.

Funny thing about Mamula though, is "everyone" got on him about his hurries, but missing the sack. Now today, they're tracking hurries.

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