Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

ackid38

Dual-threat QBs a fad, not a movement

Recommended Posts

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/11/30/top-nfl-assistant-coaches-for/tqubwluzSgxBPSMDXsT9YO/story.html

 

Remember back in 2012 when the read-option offense, pistol formation, and dual-threat quarterbacks were going to revolutionize the NFL?

About that . . .

Robert Griffin III was the NFL’s Rookie of the Year in 2012, displaying a big arm, pinpoint accuracy, and home run speed. He threw for 20 touchdowns against five interceptions while rushing for 815 yards that year, leading the Redskins to a division title and directing the No. 4 scoring offense in the NFL.

And Colin Kaepernick was the 49ers’ spark in 2012, replacing Alex Smith in the middle of the season and leading the Niners all the way to the Super Bowl, highlighted by his legendary performance against the Packers in the playoffs, when he threw for 263 yards and two touchdowns and rushed for 181 yards and two more touchdowns.

Two years later, the concept seems all but dead, another fad that has quickly fizzled. RG3 has officially been benched in Washington, a downfall that has been as swift as it has been shocking. And the 49ers have stalled under Kaepernick’s direction, failing to score 20 points in five of their last six games.

One AFC personnel executive said that having athletic ability is still a positive for quarterbacks — the ability to avoid pass rushers has enabled Aaron RodgersAndrew Luck, and Russell Wilson to win many games — but pocket passing is still by far the No. 1 prerequisite for good quarterback play.

Being a running quarterback only works for so long in the NFL. Griffin and Kaepernick have seen their yards per carry drop dramatically since 2012 — both are down 2 yards to 4.5 this year — and they haven’t been able to make up for it with their passing abilities.

“The running aspect of the game is not easy to defend and is certainly an asset,” the executive said. “But at some point, they have to win from the pocket, make throws from the pocket, read a full defense and the field, process that information, and throw from traditional positions, especially when an opponent defends against the read-option.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this is a fad, it's one that won't go away.  People have been talking about it for as long as I can remember and the end result is always the same: it's what you do in the pocket that matters. Beyond a certain threshold, athleticism is just icing on the cake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at all the College QBs that are the future of the NFL, an overwhleming majority of them are mobile QBs. Next years draft class: Mariota, Winston, Hundley are all mobile QBs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at all the College QBs that are the future of the NFL, an overwhleming majority of them are mobile QBs. Next years draft class: Mariota, Winston, Hundley are all mobile QBs.

And I think all 3 will all fail as nfl qbs..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Russell Wilson sure did win a Superbowl last year and is sniffing around for another this year despite playing with crumb bum targets. Andrew Luck sure does look like one of the best QBs in the league. No one said QBs don't need to throw or learn how to read defenses and the added element of running the ball is hugely beneficial, it is the future of the position.

POKIT QBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Russell Wilson sure did win a Superbowl last year and is sniffing around for another this year despite playing with crumb bum targets. Andrew Luck sure does look like one of the best QBs in the league. No one said QBs don't need to throw or learn how to read defenses and the added element of running the ball is hugely beneficial, it is the future of the position.

POKIT QBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

Russell Wilson is a QB that can run, like Steve Young.

 

The rest are athletes trying to figure out how to be QB's.

 

QB is played from the neck up, and Russell Wilson has it upstairs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Russell Wilson is a QB that can run, like Steve Young.

 

The rest are athletes trying to figure out how to be QB's.

 

QB is played from the neck up, and Russell Wilson has it upstairs.

Which is exactly what I said, dummy. I was pointing out how stupid the title of the thread is

Dual-threat QBs a fad, not a movement

OMG A QB CAN RUN, HE MUST SUCK! Russell has been a dual threat all year and is the only reason why his team has 8 wins and he already has a championship. People actually believe that a QB that can/does wrong is bad in some way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Mike Lewis, true DUAL THREAT QBs are certainly more than a fad....I think this was meant to be directed at one dimensional mobile QBs.   I dont think one dimensional QBs are typically good enough to be elite AS QUARTERBACKS whether they are mobile or strictly pocket guys.  The guys that are leading the league are more the exceptions to the rule (i.e. Brees, Brady, Manning).

 

You definitely need the ability to pass from the pocket, read/adjust, and have pocket presence to know when to make moves.   If the moves you make get your team a first down, its a bonus, but its not something you want to do every time you feel a rush coming on.

 

Most of the folks that have dissed mobile QBs praised RGIII highly at first because of his Baylor numbers from the pocket.  Big difference between a college pocket and an NFL pocket.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have a QB that has it upstairs(reads defenses, understands the entire offensive game play and system) and can work out of the pocket AND can run as well.  He's the ultimate weapon.  That's guys like Rodgers or Steve Young or maybe Wilson (too early to put him in that company IMO).  But most of these QBs are athletes that have gotten by on their ability to run and haven't dedicated the time to really understand and improve as QBs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Passing the ball will always be the most efficient way of moving the ball down the field.

 

Running QB's are a product of high school and college coaches coming up with a way of making a QB effective without having to read a defense and throw the ball. Not every team has a player that can QB well in the pocket. But pretty much every team has someone who runs fast. It works up to the college level when you put the fastest guy behind center and have him "out-athlete" the other guys on the defense. It fails in the NFL because those guys are defense are just as strong and as fast. Have to be able to pass in the NFL to succeed as a QB. That's the way it is and will always be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at all the College QBs that are the future of the NFL, an overwhleming majority of them are mobile QBs. Next years draft class: Mariota, Winston, Hundley are all mobile QBs.

 

 

Winston is not a mobile qb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, it's not a fad.  The running Qb has permanently displaced the traditional "game manager".  The elite Qb's are still and will always be guys who do their damage from the pocket.  But for run oriented offenses who don't have an elite Qb and only want to throw 25 times a game, scramblers with guns are better than checkdown charlies.

 

The problem with Kaepernick and RG3 is that both of them are at their best when they are complimenting a strong running game and neither team is running the ball like they were before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The OP framed this thread poorly. Fran Tarketon, John Elway and Steve Young are Hall of Fame dual threat QB. However, these guys were all pass-first, run-second. The problem with many mobile, athletic QBs is that they are so used to relying on their athleticism in high school and college that they never learn to go through their reads. However, QBs who learn to go through their progressions but also have the added threat of creating damage with their feet have and always will be successful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This observation about dual-threat QBs goes all the way back to Vick, and even Cunningham. Vick never learned to be a pocket passer because he didn't have to. He can run around because he's fast and ad-lib plays because he has a cannon for an arm, but he never had to learn how to read and throw from the pocket. Cunningham was the same way until he retired from the Eagles, then went to the Vikings as a backup and learned from Chip Myers. He had his best seasons in Minnesota when he learned to use his arm (And he had really good players on offense around him.)

 

RG3, Kaepernick, and Manziel are the next generation. They make it to the NFL because they are really talented football players. Teams think they can teach them how to make reads and play like a pocket QB, but they won't learn until they have to. They will continue to rely on their talents as long as they can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Running quarterbacks a fad. Hmmm. Let's see. Fran Tarkenton was a running quarterback. John Elway anyone. He was a running quarterback. How about Randal Cunningham? Or, how about Steve Young? All were great running quarterbacks that could actually get it done. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/11/30/top-nfl-assistant-coaches-for/tqubwluzSgxBPSMDXsT9YO/story.html

 

Remember back in 2012 when the read-option offense, pistol formation, and dual-threat quarterbacks were going to revolutionize the NFL?

About that . . .

Robert Griffin III was the NFL’s Rookie of the Year in 2012, displaying a big arm, pinpoint accuracy, and home run speed. He threw for 20 touchdowns against five interceptions while rushing for 815 yards that year, leading the Redskins to a division title and directing the No. 4 scoring offense in the NFL.

And Colin Kaepernick was the 49ers’ spark in 2012, replacing Alex Smith in the middle of the season and leading the Niners all the way to the Super Bowl, highlighted by his legendary performance against the Packers in the playoffs, when he threw for 263 yards and two touchdowns and rushed for 181 yards and two more touchdowns.

Two years later, the concept seems all but dead, another fad that has quickly fizzled. RG3 has officially been benched in Washington, a downfall that has been as swift as it has been shocking. And the 49ers have stalled under Kaepernick’s direction, failing to score 20 points in five of their last six games.

One AFC personnel executive said that having athletic ability is still a positive for quarterbacks — the ability to avoid pass rushers has enabled Aaron RodgersAndrew Luck, and Russell Wilson to win many games — but pocket passing is still by far the No. 1 prerequisite for good quarterback play.

Being a running quarterback only works for so long in the NFL. Griffin and Kaepernick have seen their yards per carry drop dramatically since 2012 — both are down 2 yards to 4.5 this year — and they haven’t been able to make up for it with their passing abilities.

“The running aspect of the game is not easy to defend and is certainly an asset,” the executive said. “But at some point, they have to win from the pocket, make throws from the pocket, read a full defense and the field, process that information, and throw from traditional positions, especially when an opponent defends against the read-option.”

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/greg-cosell-s-film-review--the-question-of-the-mobile-quarterback-185345656.html

 

This is a decent break down on this subject.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder about the numbers on how many pocket QB's come out of college and fail in the NFL. Are there as many failures there as there are for mobile QBs? Does it matter if they are mobile or not?  The good QBs that stick around, whether mobile or not, are the ones who get it all together and become a complete QB; Young, Tarketon, Elway, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While Wilson played well in the Superbowl last year, the defense won them that game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rodgers, Wilson, and Luck aren't dual threat? 

 

I'll never get the misconception that fast QBs are automatically bad. At the position you need to be able to throw the ball accurately. If you can intelligently use your legs it makes you a very, very dangerous player. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Running quarterbacks a fad. Hmmm. Let's see. Fran Tarkenton was a running quarterback. John Elway anyone. He was a running quarterback. How about Randal Cunningham? Or, how about Steve Young? All were great running quarterbacks that could actually get it done"

 

Big difference from an Atheletic QB and another who is a running QB, Tarkenton was a great scrambler, Elway was like Rodgers with his ability to move out of the pocket, Steve Young highest rushing total was 507 YD's, big difference form Randalls 972 and Vicks 1,000 + YD's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Passing the ball will always be the most efficient way of moving the ball down the field.

 

Running QB's are a product of high school and college coaches coming up with a way of making a QB effective without having to read a defense and throw the ball. Not every team has a player that can QB well in the pocket. But pretty much every team has someone who runs fast. It works up to the college level when you put the fastest guy behind center and have him "out-athlete" the other guys on the defense. It fails in the NFL because those guys are defense are just as strong and as fast. Have to be able to pass in the NFL to succeed as a QB. That's the way it is and will always be.

 

 

I think this is a great point. My son at QB led his pee wee team to an undefeated 9-0 running a high speed option offense with some passing. His coaches put him in at QB not because he can throw really well but because he can figure out where to go with the ball, run it really well and make easy passes when they present themselves. 

 

I think that carries along to grade school, HS and outside of top tier division 1 colleges most of CFB. Having a kid who really can read defenses and make all the throws from the pocket isn't an easy thing. Having a very athletic kid who can run an offense built on him being a superior athlete to most isn't as uncommon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends on what your definition of a dual threat QB is.  

 

If you're looking at the model of RG3, Vick, Kaepernick, etc. as a dual threat QB, then you're talking about guys that are run-first QB's and don't develop the actual quarterbacking aspects of the position.  If a QB comes out of college with the running ability of Vick, but can read a defense like a pocket passing QB and make the throw first, they'd be by far the most unstoppable QB ever.   But with these guys, it's too easy for them to fall back on their scrambling ability.  It winds up hurting them more than anything.  They don't get used to reading defenses until they get to the NFL, and then they try doing it on the fly and it falls apart for them.

 

But if you're looking at QB's like Rodgers and Luck, they probably can't run for 100 yards in a game.  But they can throw the ball, make reads, and they're good enough scramblers to make plays.  They might top out at 20 or 30 yards a game, but those yards will be critical conversions in specific moments.  

 

That's the kind of QB that will always be in demand.  Pocket passer first, fast enough runner second.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites