bobbywizdum

The NFL product has really deteriorated

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I've said this before in like threads. If one wants to decrease head injuries get rid of all hard pads. Hard pads don't protect all they do is increase ones ability to use ones body ,head,shoulders as a weapon.

Get rid of hard helmets and defenders and offensive players aren't going to use their heads as battering rams out of self preservation.

Go watch rugby. No hard pads, tackling is taught and enforced cheek to cheek. Face cheek to butt cheek and in rugby there are far less head injuries. High tackles are penalized as are pile drivers and low tackles.

Youth football has already transitioned over to teaching rugby style tackling and even some pro and college teams have brought in rugby coaches and players to teach tackling technique focused on head protection.

Viewers though would rather watch a guy full speed launch himself and his head into its target causing maximum collision. Same reason people watch NASCAR. Not to watch a car go in a circle but to watch them do it at unsafe speeds that increase the chance of collision.

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On 8/6/2017 at 4:36 AM, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

See I know I'm far newer to the NFL than a lot of you guys... But I still think it becomes more exciting and more unpredictable every year. Every week any team can beat any team and I really can't call at this point who's in for a good year and who's not.

The problem last year was the officiating and then for reason the play offs were all blow outs with the exception of the Green Bay Dallas game.

You're like a fan getting into wrestling just before it turns into the WWE. A lack of integrity in the games means we're not actually watching anything thats real

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49 minutes ago, Utebird said:

I've said this before in like threads. If one wants to decrease head injuries get rid of all hard pads. Hard pads don't protect all they do is increase ones ability to use ones body ,head,shoulders as a weapon.

Get rid of hard helmets and defenders and offensive players aren't going to use their heads as battering rams out of self preservation.

Go watch rugby. No hard pads, tackling is taught and enforced cheek to cheek. Face cheek to butt cheek and in rugby there are far less head injuries. High tackles are penalized as are pile drivers and low tackles.

Youth football has already transitioned over to teaching rugby style tackling and even some pro and college teams have brought in rugby coaches and players to teach tackling technique focused on head protection.

Viewers though would rather watch a guy full speed launch himself and his head into its target causing maximum collision. Same reason people watch NASCAR. Not to watch a car go in a circle but to watch them do it at unsafe speeds that increase the chance of collision.

When you let the receiver go free and have the safety head there like a bullet, its different than dragging 2 dudes at 1mph while another wrestles you down in rugby

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4 hours ago, matchew88 said:

When you let the receiver go free and have the safety head there like a bullet, its different than dragging 2 dudes at 1mph while another wrestles you down in rugby

Yup it is different. Also different when that safety is wearing a hard helmet that he can use as a means of tackling.

Plenty of guys in rugby make open field tackles at full speed. 

Go watch some sevens instead of 15s

One has to be able to make one on one tackles at guys going full speed.

In football a safety can still hit a guy coming across the middle without hard pads and without doing damage to eithers heads while still seperating receiver from ball.

Lineman would be less likely to smash heads into eachother. 

How often does a DL or a LB hit a RB when both or either are going full speed?

There is absolutely no reason for hard pads except to increase the force of impact.

Get rid of hard pads the force of impact decreases. Teach proper tackling technique and a premium on player t

Responsibility for opponent safety and injury especially head injuries decrease.

Take away hard helmets micro head impacts decrease by simple self preservstion.

Will head injuries be eliminated? Absolutely not. Its a contact sport but head to head contact should decrease.

As im sure would the ratings and popularity because high impact collisions sell tickets.

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When millions of dollars are on the line, you can't use the threat of worse injury as an answer

@Utebird

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2 hours ago, Utebird said:

Yup it is different. Also different when that safety is wearing a hard helmet that he can use as a means of tackling.

Plenty of guys in rugby make open field tackles at full speed. 

Go watch some sevens instead of 15s

One has to be able to make one on one tackles at guys going full speed.

In football a safety can still hit a guy coming across the middle without hard pads and without doing damage to eithers heads while still seperating receiver from ball.

Lineman would be less likely to smash heads into eachother. 

How often does a DL or a LB hit a RB when both or either are going full speed?

There is absolutely no reason for hard pads except to increase the force of impact.

Get rid of hard pads the force of impact decreases. Teach proper tackling technique and a premium on player t

Responsibility for opponent safety and injury especially head injuries decrease.

Take away hard helmets micro head impacts decrease by simple self preservstion.

Will head injuries be eliminated? Absolutely not. Its a contact sport but head to head contact should decrease.

As im sure would the ratings and popularity because high impact collisions sell tickets.

Your ideas may sound crazy to "I make 40 million a year, and I'm not going to change because only money and TV ratings matter" Roger Goodell, but you have made very valid points.  

Think of all the old NFL vets who played in the 30's 40's 50's, and 1960's.  When NFL players were wearing leather helmets in the 1940's and early 1950's, Steve Van Buren was one of the best RBs in the NFL.  He lived a long life to the age of 91.  Chuck Bednarik lived to be 89, he played offensive center, and middle linebacker for many seasons.  While it was revealed that Frank Gifford did suffer from CTE he lived to be 84.   The severity of brain injury the modern NFL player endures after retirement is so much worse today they want to end their lives by the time they reach the age of fifty.  This is a fixable problem, but since the NFL didn't admit to long term impact of concussions until a gun was pointed to their temple, I doubt anything will be done.  

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, matchew88 said:

When millions of dollars are on the line, you can't use the threat of worse injury as an answer

@Utebird

They already do. Thus the rule changes. But its not the answer. CTE is still going to be a problem as long as there are hard helmets because hard helmets increase micro head impacts.

And of course they would lose money the masses want carnage and high impact collisions.but id rather see a good product with no pads than what they have now.

Are you not entertained?

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16 hours ago, Utebird said:

Yup it is different. Also different when that safety is wearing a hard helmet that he can use as a means of tackling.

Plenty of guys in rugby make open field tackles at full speed. 

Go watch some sevens instead of 15s

One has to be able to make one on one tackles at guys going full speed.

In football a safety can still hit a guy coming across the middle without hard pads and without doing damage to eithers heads while still seperating receiver from ball.

Lineman would be less likely to smash heads into eachother. 

How often does a DL or a LB hit a RB when both or either are going full speed?

There is absolutely no reason for hard pads except to increase the force of impact.

Get rid of hard pads the force of impact decreases. Teach proper tackling technique and a premium on player t

Responsibility for opponent safety and injury especially head injuries decrease.

Take away hard helmets micro head impacts decrease by simple self preservstion.

Will head injuries be eliminated? Absolutely not. Its a contact sport but head to head contact should decrease.

As im sure would the ratings and popularity because high impact collisions sell tickets.

They may not of always wore helmets but they always had other pads. All it would take is one incidentally head to head collision without a helmet that ends in a crushed skull and brain damage instantly/death for that to end. The game is a lot faster and more explosive then they were back then and the guys playing American football are alot more explosive and faster then the guys in rugby plus you don't have the passing and what not that the NFL has. 

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23 minutes ago, bwestbrook36 said:

They may not of always wore helmets but they always had other pads. All it would take is one incidentally head to head collision without a helmet that ends in a crushed skull and brain damage instantly/death for that to end. The game is a lot faster and more explosive then they were back then and the guys playing American football are alot more explosive and faster then the guys in rugby plus you don't have the passing and what not that the NFL has. 

Soft pads like the ones in rugby provide some protection. Also players are less likely to have accidental. High impact head collisions if they feel their heads are vulnerable. People tend to naturally protect their heads unless one encases it in a hard plastic and metal bucket giving said person a sense of invulnerability.

As for rugby im guessing you dont watch international rugby. Plenty of big explosive athletes.

As for passing true, but one can separate reciever from ball without head to head contact and without hard pads. The difference is the sound it makes and the impact.

I played football in high school ive played tackle football with friends without pads and ive played rugby and i can easily say out of the 3 the most cranium to cranuim contact i had was while wearing hard pads in football.

Hard pads dont protect they just make head to head impact at higher forces more frequent and likely without crushing ones skull.

Take hard pads away people dont purposfully launch their heads into eachother.

 

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1 minute ago, Utebird said:

Soft pads like the ones in rugby provide some protection. Also players are less likely to have accidental. High impact head collisions if they feel their heads are vulnerable. People tend to naturally protect their heads unless one encases it in a hard plastic and metal bucket giving said person a sense of invulnerability.

As for rugby im guessing you dont watch international rugby. Plenty of big explosive athletes.

As for passing true, but one can separate reciever from ball without head to head contact and without hard pads. The difference is the sound it makes and the impact.

I played football in high school ive played tackle football with friends without pads and ive played rugby and i can easily say out of the 3 the most cranium to cranuim contact i had was while wearing hard pads in football.

Hard pads dont protect they just make head to head impact at higher forces more frequent and likely without crushing ones skull.

Take hard pads away people dont purposfully launch their heads into eachother.

 

I understand what you are saying but, the need to bring someone down is more important in football then in rugby since we have the down and distance. Also trying to maintain technique when a bullet is coming across the middle in the NFL and having a split second to make a play to bring the guy down is not a simple task.  There is more emphasis on bringing a guy down in the NFL then rugby. You are not even allowed to use your shoulders to tackle in rugby. Also there is actually more injuries in rugby then in the NFL I read plenty of articles on it they also don't have the same concussion protocal in rugby there could be more of them and we don't know it. 

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2 minutes ago, bwestbrook36 said:

I understand what you are saying but, the need to bring someone down is more important in football then in rugby since we have the down and distance. Also trying to maintain technique when a bullet is coming across the middle in the NFL and having a split second to make a play to bring the guy down is not a simple task.  There is more emphasis on bringing a guy down in the NFL then rugby. You are not even allowed to use your shoulders to tackle in rugby. Also there is actually more injuries in rugby then in the NFL I read plenty of articles on it they also don't have the same concussion protocal in rugby there could be more of them and we don't know it. 

Not allowed to use shoulders? Not sure where you heard that.

True hard pads help one bring another player down with more impact.

Just like a baseball hit with a metal bat with same amount of force will travel faster.

But that is beside the point.

The point is player safety. Hard pads dont increase player safety they decrease it.

Saying cant take hard pads away because people will get hurt when people are already getting hurt wearing hard pads is an illogical premise.

If one wants to argue the league will lose money and players that routinely use their plastic wrapped heads to launch into others will have to adjust to new tackling technique then yeah.

Sure there are injuries in rugby its a contact sport nut there are less head injuries and by far less micro impacts to ones head. There are more micro head impacts in soccer than rugby.

Current research suggest isnt just the big bell ringers that lead to CTE but the compilation of many micro impacts to the head over the years.

Take away hard pads those micro impacts to the head decrease decreasing in theory liklihood of CTE.

If NFL were serious about player safety and the fans were as well they would get rid of hard pads.

But NFL knows the pulse of their fan base and product is based on violent high impact collision which with out hard pads would be decreased.

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1 minute ago, Utebird said:

Not allowed to use shoulders? Not sure where you heard that.

True hard pads help one bring another player down with more impact.

Just like a baseball hit with a metal bat with same amount of force will travel faster.

But that is beside the point.

The point is player safety. Hard pads dont increase player safety they decrease it.

Saying cant take hard pads away because people will get hurt when people are already getting hurt wearing hard pads is an illogical premise.

If one wants to argue the league will lose money and players that routinely use their plastic wrapped heads to launch into others will have to adjust to new tackling technique then yeah.

Sure there are injuries in rugby its a contact sport nut there are less head injuries and by far less micro impacts to ones head. There are more micro head impacts in soccer than rugby.

Current research suggest isnt just the big bell ringers that lead to CTE but the compilation of many micro impacts to the head over the years.

Take away hard pads those micro impacts to the head decrease decreasing in theory liklihood of CTE.

If NFL were serious about player safety and the fans were as well they would get rid of hard pads.

But NFL knows the pulse of their fan base and product is based on violent high impact collision which with out hard pads would be decreased.

I don't see how you can decrease the micro impacts on the offensive and defensive line with or without helmets. Or a running back taking the ball through the middle. Those are the types of things that the helmet helps with. You can in no way avoid that without helmets. Both sports are 2 different animals. 

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15 minutes ago, bwestbrook36 said:

I don't see how you can decrease the micro impacts on the offensive and defensive line with or without helmets. Or a running back taking the ball through the middle. Those are the types of things that the helmet helps with. You can in no way avoid that without helmets. Both sports are 2 different animals. 

Its easy dont use your head to tackle. Do t hit others in the head and face with hands.

Ever played tackle football with your freinds without any helmets? 

How many times you get a concussion or get your bell rung or smash your gead into some one elses head?

If so its rare in those circumstances because when ones head isnt encased I a helmet one isn't going to willingly launch it into other hard objects.

Ive played lots of tackle football with friends without pads and never got my bell rung hit my head or had micro impacts to my head yet in organized football with hard pads and rules and coaches and taught and practiced technique my head made incidental contact with others heads almost every play. Becayse my helmet is supposed to protect me from that contact. But without my helmet i wouldnt willingly initiate that contact and would actively out of self preservation avoud said contact with otmr to my head.

Ever see a db coming bearing down on a rb a million mph and lead with his head launching his body head first into the side of the runningbacks head? Its fairly commonplace yet wouldnt happen if one wSnt wearing a helmet because most sane people dont use their heads as blunt force weapons out of self preservation.

Hard pads increase impsct in a collision sport.

Higher impacts sell more tickets.

Hard pads have nothing to do with safety and all to do with money snd selling a product.

Want to protect players get rid of hard pads.

High impact collisions decrease as would ticket sales as football would no longer be a collision sport but a contact sport

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13 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Its easy dont use your head to tackle. Do t hit others in the head and face with hands.

Ever played tackle football with your freinds without any helmets? 

How many times you get a concussion or get your bell rung or smash your gead into some one elses head?

If so its rare in those circumstances because when ones head isnt encased I a helmet one isn't going to willingly launch it into other hard objects.

Ive played lots of tackle football with friends without pads and never got my bell rung hit my head or had micro impacts to my head yet in organized football with hard pads and rules and coaches and taught and practiced technique my head made incidental contact with others heads almost every play. Becayse my helmet is supposed to protect me from that contact. But without my helmet i wouldnt willingly initiate that contact and would actively out of self preservation avoud said contact with otmr to my head.

Ever see a db coming bearing down on a rb a million mph and lead with his head launching his body head first into the side of the runningbacks head? Its fairly commonplace yet wouldnt happen if one wSnt wearing a helmet because most sane people dont use their heads as blunt force weapons out of self preservation.

Hard pads increase impsct in a collision sport.

Higher impacts sell more tickets.

Hard pads have nothing to do with safety and all to do with money snd selling a product.

Want to protect players get rid of hard pads.

High impact collisions decrease as would ticket sales as football would no longer be a collision sport but a contact sport

I've played lots of tackle football without pads and yes I've got my bell ring. Either way vicious hits are glorified in the NFL

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Just now, bwestbrook36 said:

I've played lots of tackle football without pads and yes I've got my bell ring. Either way vicious hits are glorified in the NFL

Yes they are. They used to make video montages of just big hits where guys got knocked out fans love the big collisions.

If it was still socially acceptable the players would fight to the death. Though I'm sure that would cut into the leagues profits ?

 

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19 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Yes they are. They used to make video montages of just big hits where guys got knocked out fans love the big collisions.

If it was still socially acceptable the players would fight to the death. Though I'm sure that would cut into the leagues profits ?

 

I got my bell ring tackling somebody twice my size. I still don't know how it happened I blacked out lol. Also played some organized football after highschool. It was called semi prob but basically midget football for adults lol. Got my bell rung there to cause on a kick off some guy gave me an illegal block in the back he snapped my neck back like whiplash. I know I was dizzy when I got up. Helmets or no helmets and in most cases doesn't matter if you get hit with a helmet or not it's unavoidable. Calvin Johnson said it when he retired there is still concussions on every single play some are just more noticeable then others and that is why he walked away. 

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On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 10:24 AM, Utebird said:

 Are you not entertained?

'heard'  that!

Russell Crow's character Maximus Decimus Meridius in "Gladiator" !

He's just slaughtered like 10 men, largely by himself in the arena.

"And I shall have my vengeance . . . in this life or the next!"

Great flick! One of my all-time faves!

And a great analogy as well!

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On 8/1/2017 at 2:15 AM, Iggles said:

I've mentioned it in another post referring to the end of the Dallas Eagles 1981 NFC Championship game.  When the game was 20-7 and it was obvious the Eagles were going to win, Danny White gets tossed to the ground like a rag doll by one of the Eagles DL.   No flag, no letter from the league, no fine, and so suspension.   Today if Danny White was making top five QB money.........the NFL today is a corporate joke.  

Why is that a good thing ? I understand that the pendulum ( in many ways ) has swung too far on the side of suspensions, fines, and penalties, but maybe that's because  the pendulum in the "good ole days" was too far on other side to begin with. 

And I sort of chuckle when I hear people complain about how soft players and the league have become as opposed to the players of yesteryear. Take one of the best defensive lineman to ever play the game in Joe Greene ? How effective would he have been in today's game playing defensive tackle at 275-280 lbs. ? 

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16 hours ago, Phila.:chip said:

Why is that a good thing ? I understand that the pendulum ( in many ways ) has swung too far on the side of suspensions, fines, and penalties, but maybe that's because  the pendulum in the "good ole days" was too far on other side to begin with. 

And I sort of chuckle when I hear people complain about how soft players and the league have become as opposed to the players of yesteryear. Take one of the best defensive lineman to ever play the game in Joe Greene ? How effective would he have been in today's game playing defensive tackle at 275-280 lbs. ? 

The difference is that back then QB's weren't sacred cows.  They weren't occupying almost 30% of the teams cap space in terms of salary since there was no salary cap then to begin with.  Now the QB's are handled with kid gloves, because it's all about NFL, and team revenue dollars.  The game had more fluidity back then.  As soon as I saw that Ed Hochuli was going to be head ref for the Bills game last Thursday, I knew he would extend the length of the game by at least fifteen minutes for ticky tack crap calls.   The Joe West of the NFL, who infamous for his "floating" strike zone. 

As for Joe Greene, did it cross your mind that if Joe Green was in his prime during this era of NFL football he would be bigger than 275-280 lbs.?  Same talent, larger build.  Even though the players almost 40 years ago were 50-80 pounds lighter on both lines on average, it doesn't take away the action on the field.  It's just as entertaining.  

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I didn't think it would be possible . . . but I'm now thinking that, in this politically correct / nanny state age we're living in, it's only a matter of time before this game that we've loved so much for all these years is either reduced to a kind of 'flag football' game or completely done away with. Week after week I'm seeing the media playing up the deaths of children in HS or club team football. Or they're remembering young men who've died in the last ten years or so. Or they're showing parents who now won't let their kids play football. Or they're shutting down a club team or a HS team somewhere. The next steps will be to continue to demonize the sport and then they'll go after the sponsors for college & pro football. Once the sponsors are confronted with the politically correct battering ram the money will begin to dry up for the sport. And eventually all we'll have left will be the memories of what used to be. And all the do-gooders will be happy & safe in their Volvos & Honda Odysseys. Swell.

I hope I'm wrong . . . 

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On 8/24/2017 at 11:22 AM, McNabbIsGone said:

I didn't think it would be possible . . . but I'm now thinking that, in this politically correct / nanny state age we're living in, it's only a matter of time before this game that we've loved so much for all these years is either reduced to a kind of 'flag football' game or completely done away with. Week after week I'm seeing the media playing up the deaths of children in HS or club team football. Or they're remembering young men who've died in the last ten years or so. Or they're showing parents who now won't let their kids play football. Or they're shutting down a club team or a HS team somewhere. The next steps will be to continue to demonize the sport and then they'll go after the sponsors for college & pro football. Once the sponsors are confronted with the politically correct battering ram the money will begin to dry up for the sport. And eventually all we'll have left will be the memories of what used to be. And all the do-gooders will be happy & safe in their Volvos & Honda Odysseys. Swell.

I hope I'm wrong . . . 

I see it going there too

 

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On 8/24/2017 at 11:22 AM, McNabbIsGone said:

I didn't think it would be possible . . . but I'm now thinking that, in this politically correct / nanny state age we're living in, it's only a matter of time before this game that we've loved so much for all these years is either reduced to a kind of 'flag football' game or completely done away with. Week after week I'm seeing the media playing up the deaths of children in HS or club team football. Or they're remembering young men who've died in the last ten years or so. Or they're showing parents who now won't let their kids play football. Or they're shutting down a club team or a HS team somewhere. The next steps will be to continue to demonize the sport and then they'll go after the sponsors for college & pro football. Once the sponsors are confronted with the politically correct battering ram the money will begin to dry up for the sport. And eventually all we'll have left will be the memories of what used to be. And all the do-gooders will be happy & safe in their Volvos & Honda Odysseys. Swell.

I hope I'm wrong . . . 

The fact that Roger Goodell has signed a new contract, and will be booed into infinity by many angry NFL fans when he makes his face public for another seven years, the above isn't happening.  It just means more game stoppage with new rule changes, even more ticky tack calls that weren't called 30 years ago, more commercials for TV revenue due to an increase of breaks in the action, and a game that will take at least close to four hours to complete.  Why do you think games that used to start at 4PM EDT on the West Coast, or prime time East coast games are now 4:30?  In a few years, you can up that to 4:45PM EDT.  The traditional 4PM second game EDT kickoff was set in stone for decades, until Goodell.  

With the advent of the 50" and much larger screen High Definition LED TV,  when will the NFL fan get tired of investing a portion of their yearly salary for season tickets when they can watch it all at home?   Looking at an iPad while sitting at the Linc is not the same while commercials broadcast on TV waiting for the players to continue.   It was annoying at the VET in the early 1990's.  It has to be unbearable today.   

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I'm repeating what's already been said, but two of the larger impacts on the NFL have been: fantasy football and the lost art of tackling.

There were two generations of kids that were taught to 'run into' players instead of wrapping up to make a tackle.  It sucks. 

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On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 4:36 AM, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

See I know I'm far newer to the NFL than a lot of you guys... But I still think it becomes more exciting and more unpredictable every year. Every week any team can beat any team and I really can't call at this point who's in for a good year and who's not.

The problem last year was the officiating and then for reason the play offs were all blow outs with the exception of the Green Bay Dallas game.

My biggest problem with the NFL is the excessive penalties and the timeouts/commercials.  I don't mind that the product isn't what it used to be 10-20 years ago. Players and teams also don't practice anywhere near as much as they used to.  

I'll still be sitting in front of my TV watching football all day on Sunday.  

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