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[News] Early Thinking On Some Roster Battles To Watch

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2 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

See I was thinking the 7.5 mil per year range about right. But I think the contract bigger with more fluff at the end like you said. And it benefits us to have incentives in the contract. So I’m thinking 4 years 34 million. I’m also thinking a bloated final year that he doesn’t see.

So like year 4 would be around 11 mil?    Thinking 3 years $23 mil range?   

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See that’s the tricky part. Because I would think Agholor and his agent feel his production has been low for his ability. Basically he believes he is one of the better receivers in the league. So does he  really like it here? Or does he feel he’s being held back? That he’s creating separation and Wentz isn’t trusting to throw him the ball? The kind of thing that leads to anonymous quotes that show up about the QB?

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FL and DC what is it you love about WR Hakeem Butler from Iowa? Obviously his enormous size at the position. But he has to use that to catch the ball. And that is where I don’t see him being that high of a talent. You seem to be looking for him late round one or maybe falling to the second round. But the guy drops a lot of balls. As a DB I could live with that more. But it’s the fundamental job description as a WR.

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1 minute ago, cunninghamtheman said:

See that’s the tricky part. Because I would think Agholor and his agent feel his production has been low for his ability. Basically he believes he is one of the better receivers in the league. So does he  really like it here? Or does he feel he’s being held back? That he’s creating separation and Wentz isn’t trusting to throw him the ball? The kind of thing that leads to anonymous quotes that show up about the QB?

Ham, you saw the first few games Alshon ... where was the separation?  Not much there.  Again... its comparison to our team only.   He is limited on the outside where we know and have seen he thrives in the slot... easier to separate there... and again.. the two studs don't rely on a ton of separation... and the other WRs were who?   Tate came late, but he is a catch short and run with it guy, not a separation guy.   The bar is low.   But if he wants to leave, go ahead.  I'm not forcing anyone to stay here.   I'm good with your contract ... year one with a signing bonus to keep the cap low... the last year he never sees.   You want 6 to 9 mil cap hits in years 2 and 3... I'm ok with that.  The cap opens up after this year, regardless of Wentz situation.  

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7 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

See that’s the tricky part. 

I meant to say... first few games when he played outside without Alshon ... Agholor didn't get separation... lots of little short receptions with a guy right on him.   If he was better on the outside, he would command more value.  But anywhere between yours and my assumptions... i'm ok with. 

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Comparing to our team... but creating separation as a WR means you’re open. Probably means you had more opportunity than 736 yards and 4 TDs. And I’m not really sure JMatt is better than Nelly. Obviously in the beginning he was. But then he got injured. We traded him to he77. I kind of am the thinking that JMatt is back to health now though. So I think he could produce similar to Nelly in the slot. Not really that JMatt is better overall but JMatt is better here...for this team than elsewhere. Where as Nelly is probably better in several other situations than here. So I’ve made the case that we could be better off choosing JMatt for cheaper. 

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4 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Comparing to our team... but creating separation as a WR means you’re open. Probably means you had more opportunity than 736 yards and 4 TDs. And I’m not really sure JMatt is better than Nelly. Obviously in the beginning he was. But then he got injured. We traded him to he77. I kind of am the thinking that JMatt is back to health now though. So I think he could produce similar to Nelly in the slot. Not really that JMatt is better overall but JMatt is better here...for this team than elsewhere. Where as Nelly is probably better in several other situations than here. So I’ve made the case that we could be better off choosing JMatt for cheaper. 

But was he open?  Or just less covered than the other guys... yet Alshon and Ertz don't need that.   You just seem to keep spinning that he was open all the time by a lot... I don't think so.   And his targets were fine, similar with both QBs.... even with the extra targets he ws forced to get without Alshon early.   See IMO he would have more leverage if he had better games without Alshon there taking on the better coverage.  

As for JMATT vs Agholor .... forget production.... how does the WR fit in the puzzle.   You have Ertz and Goedert ... don't you think Agholor brings the different skill set that could compliment those guys better?  Plus the whole Wentz thing... Jmatt not being there as his best friend and a guy getting targets ... to me is a good thing from one of the other WR's perspective.    I'll get Jmatt as a #4... that's it.  

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10 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

I meant to say... first few games when he played outside without Alshon ... Agholor didn't get separation... lots of little short receptions with a guy right on him.   If he was better on the outside, he would command more value.  But anywhere between yours and my assumptions... i'm ok with. 

He isn’t as good on the outside. But those first two games: some of that was clearly game plan. It isn’t his fault he’s running short patterns. That’s a playcalling thing. And you and I have our opinion on his contract. But I’m not sure he agrees. In fact I’m almost sure he doesn’t. And the team doesn’t have any leverage because we can pay him 9.4 mil this season or he becomes a free agent(if he declines the extension). So then it becomes more about ‘market value.’ Which could easily lean towards being the 32nd ranked paid WR.

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Ham... gotta be honest .... I think Wentz was the best thing for Agholor's career ...as far as QB goes.    While I think Alshon's presence was the #1 factor in getting less attention and more space... Wentz got Agholor involved early last year... the broken plays were huge... lets not forget all those in 2017.  By the time Foles came in, his career was resurrected from the first 2 seasons.    I know you think Joe S article was absolutely fact .... and probably Agholor was one of the crybabies ... but who cares.  QB had an offseason of rehab and isolation ... while Nelly was out celebrating his SB title.    Like I said, I'm good redoing his deal at the range we gave.  We don't have to cut him right away now that Foles is off the books, so possible trade, but then look at it like he won't be out on the open market at the start of free agency, so he could lose out on the teams that are willing to pay the big $$$.    I don't think he has the leverage that you think he does.  

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4 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

But was he open?  Or just less covered than the other guys... yet Alshon and Ertz don't need that.   You just seem to keep spinning that he was open all the time by a lot... I don't think so.   And his targets were fine, similar with both QBs.... even with the extra targets he ws forced to get without Alshon early.   See IMO he would have more leverage if he had better games without Alshon there taking on the better coverage.  

As for JMATT vs Agholor .... forget production.... how does the WR fit in the puzzle.   You have Ertz and Goedert ... don't you think Agholor brings the different skill set that could compliment those guys better?  Plus the whole Wentz thing... Jmatt not being there as his best friend and a guy getting targets ... to me is a good thing from one of the other WR's perspective.    I'll get Jmatt as a #4... that's it.  

See that’s where you get the speed weapon outside. That’s obviously what the offense needs to open things up inside. Speed wise Agholor and JMatt are very similar. JMatt is a good amount bigger. They both run about the same forty time. JMatt being the taller longer strider. Agholor is probably more shifty(better at a shuttle run type situation). What you think of with return abilities.

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2 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Ham... gotta be honest .... I think Wentz was the best thing for Agholor's career ...as far as QB goes.    While I think Alshon's presence was the #1 factor in getting less attention and more space... Wentz got Agholor involved early last year... the broken plays were huge... lets not forget all those in 2017.  By the time Foles came in, his career was resurrected from the first 2 seasons.    I know you think Joe S article was absolutely fact .... and probably Agholor was one of the crybabies ... but who cares.  QB had an offseason of rehab and isolation ... while Nelly was out celebrating his SB title.    Like I said, I'm good redoing his deal at the range we gave.  We don't have to cut him right away now that Foles is off the books, so possible trade, but then look at it like he won't be out on the open market at the start of free agency, so he could lose out on the teams that are willing to pay the big $$$.    I don't think he has the leverage that you think he does.  

I disagree. Wentz wasn’t the best thing for Agholor’s career. Trading JMatt was the best thing that happened to Agholor. Easy analysis there. That’s what launched him. We got rid of the better slot receiver so he could slide in there. Effectively making us better as a whole team. Which is the same idea I’m talking about now...but the situation has reversed.

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1 minute ago, cunninghamtheman said:

See that’s where you get the speed weapon outside. That’s obviously what the offense needs to open things up inside. Speed wise Agholor and JMatt are very similar. JMatt is a good amount bigger. They both run about the same forty time. JMatt being the taller longer strider. Agholor is probably more shifty(better at a shuttle run type situation). What you think of with return abilities.

Really... just probably?    Like Manute Bol was probably taller than Spud Webb?    I think of Agholor as the guy in the middle of the field that when given a little space, can turn it into a big play with the ball in his hands.   Jmatt, he is strictly a possession WR unless the defense goofs and gets tricked on a play.   I think Agholor can physically make something out of nothing with the jukes and the quickness ... which is not so much 40 yard dash speed, but quickness in a small area.

Just now, cunninghamtheman said:

I think Wentz was the best thing for Agholor's career ...as far as QB goes.

See that little last part of my sentence?

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Although... I think the Eagles need to make a move soon enough or the 5th year becomes guaranteed.  That's where Agholor does have some leverage.  

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I don’t see JMAtt as strictly a possession receiver. He averages more per reception than Agholor. But maybe you have a different definition of ‘Possession.’ I consider that a thirddown move thechains guy. Which is good to be. That means you are reliable on third down. That you won’t drop it when all the chips are on the line. That’s been one of the main problems with Agholor. But he’s improved from the early career drop-o-thon. 

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4 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

Not sure why you would state’ as QB goes.’ But actually two of his three best games were with Foles last season.

Because.... his best play was in 2017, after 2 pretty bas seasons.   And I say "as far as QB goes"  because he had some nice plays with Wentz... after Wentz was able to ad lib and go off script while avoiding the rush.    That put Agholor on the map for the most part as far as an NFL WR goes.   Without that... I don't think he would have been an Eagle this year.  

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1 minute ago, joemas6 said:

Because.... his best play was in 2017, after 2 pretty bas seasons.   And I say "as far as QB goes"  because he had some nice plays with Wentz... after Wentz was able to ad lib and go off script while avoiding the rush.    That put Agholor on the map for the most part as far as an NFL WR goes.   Without that... I don't think he would have been an Eagle this year.  

And see I think without moving JMatt out of the slot Agholor doesn’t get that fifth year option exercised. This being the more important factor than QB. Position.

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Just now, cunninghamtheman said:

I don’t see JMAtt as strictly a possession receiver. He averages more per reception than Agholor. But maybe you have a different definition of ‘Possession.’ I consider that a thirddown move thechains guy. Which is good to be. That means you are reliable on third down. That you won’t drop it when all the chips are on the line.eht

Yeah ... uhhh.   Agholor with some pretty clutch catches in some meaningful games.   Jmatt for the most part hasn't really played in the meaningful games.   And forget the stats ... come on now...   Jmatt had some gifts for long TDs this year where coverage was blown do to not paying attention... thats not the same as when Aghlor gets the ball and physically out jukes a player or two.     I just like the quick guy in the slot... Jmatt to me ... I would prefer to go 2 TEs.   Jmatt as a #4 .. I like it.    If we lose Agholor, get another shifty guy in here that can juke.  

I like the work ethic of Jmatt... just don't like him here as a main guy... not with his "BFF" perceived relationship with the QB, we don't need that at this stage.   

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1 minute ago, cunninghamtheman said:

And see I think without moving JMatt out of the slot Agholor doesn’t get that fifth year option exercised. This being the more important factor than QB. Position.

Right .... right ... right.... again..... I was talking QB.... because you were making the case for Agholor not to like Wentz.    That's the context and the point of discussion..... obviously getting rid of JMatt and putting Alshon on the outside were the two biggest factors.    

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1 minute ago, cunninghamtheman said:

JMatt was hurt and Agholor had no trade value... so it was the obvious move. Wish we got more out of Darby though. Darby definitely has the potential and ability.

Ham... forget back then.  i'm talking now.   Going forward.   Complimenting the current roster of big WRs, without a shifty one in the middle.  Agholor offers more of a different skill set that the TEs do as compared to Jmatt when it comes to slot.   I don;t care about injuries , stats, draft position, Chip Kelly, or anything else from the past.   Just what my eyes tell me... If Goedert and Ertz are in the game. Agholor offers a better compliment IMO.  

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2 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said:

What’s wrong with a QB trusting a WR? That’s a huge check in the box for JMatt...I think.

I agree... be a good #4 part time guy.   Not what is needed from a perception standpoint when we need new guys coming in.  Not at this time for Wentz.   Again... Jmatt is not a replacement for Agholor... jmatt in addition to Agholor and another legit #2 outside guy.   I just don't think Howie wants to go down that route again.   I think he would just let JMatt go make some more money if another team wants him, get the comp pick.  Or wait until May and add him after solidifying your top 3 spots.  

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4 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Right .... right ... right.... again..... I was talking QB.... because you were making the case for Agholor not to like Wentz.    That's the context and the point of discussion..... obviously getting rid of JMatt and putting Alshon on the outside were the two biggest factors.    

Well with the point of just being about QB  concerning Agholor. Like I said two of his three best games came with Foles this year. And yes I think Agholor thinks he’s much better than his stats have produced. So that leads to the QB some. Basically that it isn’t good for Agholor that he loves Ertz so much. That he prefers Alshon. Seems obvious.

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