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[News] Early Thinking On Some Roster Battles To Watch

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2 minutes ago, GreenbleedinFL said:

And aren't most of those pretty good teams? All those RB's give us problems.if they had "average" RB's would they be this good? I cant know the answer to that

I'm asking how do youdefine who "won" the game? because the team won the QB wins the game? Like a pitcher in baseball?

I define the team as winning the game.    And my point again.... I'll repeat for 100th time.    The elite RBs have not won much the last 2 decades.   You got 45 winners and 45 losers each game... as I stated before.... if all that data over the last 20 years and you think its coincidence that the teams with the elite QBs have won so much more than the teams with the elite RBs.... we agree to disagree.   

you can give credit to the kicker if you like... I don't care... the data doesn't change.   Compare AP, LT, Shady etc... to Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers... etc.   It's not close.  At some point you have to think its not coincidence.  

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4 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

I define the team as winning the game.    And my point again.... I'll repeat for 100th time.    The elite RBs have not won much the last 2 decades.   You got 45 winners and 45 losers each game... as I stated before.... if all that data over the last 20 years and you think its coincidence that the teams with the elite QBs have won so much more than the teams with the elite RBs.... we agree to disagree.   

you can give credit to the kicker if you like... I don't care... the data doesn't change.   Compare AP, LT, Shady etc... to Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers... etc.   It's not close.  At some point you have to think its not coincidence.  

And once again I ask how do you know they(RB's) didnt win that particular game?

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Teams get lucky to draft elite QBs that is why they are elite. Most QBs drafted are average at best. Yes an elite QB makes you better but you still need to surround them with talent or they are nothing. Look no further then McNabb his 1 year with an elite WR we were in the superbowl but without it we never made it. QBs need more help then RBs do but most teams buy elite QBs weapons as well. 

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You guys are really all saying the same thing.  You need elite play at some of your most important positions on offense QB, RB, WR and possibly TE, but the better the team plays in the other positions like the line, kicking game and special teams, the more likely you are to win the SB.  Just like on defense, you need elite play in the DL and safety positions, but can get far with LB's and CB's that are also playing at a high level.  The term "elite" player gets tossed around a lot, but if you get consistent elite play out of above average players and consistent great play out of average players (realizing that average in the NFL is generally your elite or above average players in college), you have the super bowl winning formula.  Just my opinion.

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10 minutes ago, downwithdallas said:

I could make a list of elite QBs that never won a superbowl in the last 20 years too it's the teams built around them. Look at the QBs on that list look at the organizations around them. Then look at the rest of the teams and their organizations. Ask yourself a one questions on why most of them didn't have elite RBs with elite QBs where were they drafting most years and did elite RBs fall to them in the draft most of the time. 

1.  Go have the draft conversation with Ham... that's not a conversation with me, seems like you are trying to debate two people, I'm not in on that one.   I never said Dallas or NYG made a mistake drafting their RBS.... I just said I'm glad they made that investment.  Those guys will have to get paid, and they will have to be workhorses... which should impact the cap and the length of their careers.   Also force the offenses to rely heavily on both of them.  

2.  Only one team can win a SB each year ... we agree on that (I hope anyway, but i'm sure you and GBFL can make an argument that I'm wrong on that one too)   .... so sure an elite QB doesn't guarantee you anything.  I never said it did.  Did I?   

3.  You make the list of elite RBs ... ELITE.. not just good or very good .... ELITE.  Probowl gives a good amount, instead of top 2 or 3, it should give you 6-8.    Look at the last 20 years, and tell me how many elite RBs won.   

4. Look at who you think are the elite RBs of the past decade, the current ones... count the playoff wins.   Do the same for the QBs.   Is it close?  

 

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9 minutes ago, downwithdallas said:

Teams get lucky to draft elite QBs that is why they are elite. Most QBs drafted are average at best. Yes an elite QB makes you better but you still need to surround them with talent or they are nothing. Look no further then McNabb his 1 year with an elite WR we were in the superbowl but without it we never made it. QBs need more help then RBs do but most teams buy elite QBs weapons as well. 

The only exception to this is an elite defense can win you superbowls. Pittsburgh once refs a D the other, the 3 Patriots early superbowls, Baltimore, Seattle, Giants twice.

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4 minutes ago, Fireeagle27 said:

You guys are really all saying the same thing.  You need elite play at some of your most important positions on offense QB, RB, WR and possibly TE, but the better the team plays in the other positions like the line, kicking game and special teams, the more likely you are to win the SB.  Just like on defense, you need elite play in the DL and safety positions, but can get far with LB's and CB's that are also playing at a high level.  The term "elite" player gets tossed around a lot, but if you get consistent elite play out of above average players and consistent great play out of average players (realizing that average in the NFL is generally your elite or above average players in college), you have the super bowl winning formula.  Just my opinion.

Yeah... except I'm saying that you don't really need elite level play at RB... and that's what the data from the last 20 years has shown.  Again, I'm not saying bad play is ok ... just that elite play at RB is not needed.  

I'm also saying I son't think its coincidence over this period of time... too much data.    I'm not arguing that its not the teams bukt around the QBs that are better than the ones built around the RBs either.    Maybe its easier to build around the QB?  IDK.   But I just don't think its coincidence, and therefore, I wouldn't worry about getting an elite, having to pay that elite RB, and forcing him to carry the workload and having the offense rely on him so much.  Basically, everything that comes with building your offense around an elite RB.  It just hasn't produced alot of team success the last 20 years... for whatever reason.  

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1 minute ago, downwithdallas said:

The only exception to this is an elite defense can win you superbowls. Pittsburgh once refs a D the other, the 3 Patriots early superbowls, Baltimore, Seattle, Giants twice.

OK... no argument.  

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6 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

1.  Go have the draft conversation with Ham... that's not a conversation with me, seems like you are trying to debate two people, I'm not in on that one.   I never said Dallas or NYG made a mistake drafting their RBS.... I just said I'm glad they made that investment.  Those guys will have to get paid, and they will have to be workhorses... which should impact the cap and the length of their careers.   Also force the offenses to rely heavily on both of them.  

2.  Only one team can win a SB each year ... we agree on that (I hope anyway, but i'm sure you and GBFL can make an argument that I'm wrong on that one too)   .... so sure an elite QB doesn't guarantee you anything.  I never said it did.  Did I?   

3.  You make the list of elite RBs ... ELITE.. not just good or very good .... ELITE.  Probowl gives a good amount, instead of top 2 or 3, it should give you 6-8.    Look at the last 20 years, and tell me how many elite RBs won.   

4. Look at who you think are the elite RBs of the past decade, the current ones... count the playoff wins.   Do the same for the QBs.   Is it close?  

 

Like I said teams with elite QBs are out of range normally for elite RBs that's why they don't have both normally and teams that have elite RBs normally are bottom of the league and don't have a QB. Show me 1 QB that has won a superbowl by himself in the last 20 years I will wait. 

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20 minutes ago, downwithdallas said:

Teams get lucky to draft elite QBs that is why they are elite. Most QBs drafted are average at best. Yes an elite QB makes you better but you still need to surround them with talent or they are nothing. Look no further then McNabb his 1 year with an elite WR we were in the superbowl but without it we never made it. QBs need more help then RBs do but most teams buy elite QBs weapons as well. 

Yep.. no argument.... I think you need to discuss this with Ham when it comes to draft.    And again... my point, was just the facts.   You can come up with reasons all you want... its 20 years of data.  I just don't think its coincidence with that huge amount.    Maybe its easier to build an offense around the QB instead of a RB?    Maybe when you have the elite RB, he needs to ball too much?   Maybe he needs to be out on the field too much and gets tired at the end, maybe missing key blocks?   IDK?   Does it throw the salary cap outta whack by having to pay the guy too much?   IDK.   Does it shorten a career wih too many touches?   IDK.    Maybe its easier to get an effective running game with multiple RBs than it is to get an adequate passing game with a so so QB?   IDK.  Maybe it comes dow to converting 3rd and longs to keep the ball and the QB means more?   IDK    Truly, I don't know nor do I say that I do .... 

Whatever the reasons, you can debate them... i'm just saying again, I don't think its coincidence .. .top QBs are having more team success than top RBs over the last 20 years.

When I was younger I saw the RB as more important... or should I correct myself in saying , I saw having the ELITE RB as more important.  I don't think that way now.

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2 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Yeah... except I'm saying that you don't really need elite level play at RB... and that's what the data from the last 20 years has shown.  Again, I'm not saying bad play is ok ... just that elite play at RB is not needed.  

I'm also saying I son't think its coincidence over this period of time... too much data.    I'm not arguing that its not the teams bukt around the QBs that are better than the ones built around the RBs either.    Maybe its easier to build around the QB?  IDK.   But I just don't think its coincidence, and therefore, I wouldn't worry about getting an elite, having to pay that elite RB, and forcing him to carry the workload and having the offense rely on him so much.  Basically, everything that comes with building your offense around an elite RB.  It just hasn't produced alot of team success the last 20 years... for whatever reason.  

I agree that if building a team around an "elite" RB is your goal, you will probably never see a superbowl and that it is easier if you do it with an "elite" QB, but you can have the most elite QB in the world and if the team around him sucks, that team will remain at the bottom or mediocre at best.  It's the team as a whole that needs to gel and exceed their typical performance that wins SB's.

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1 minute ago, downwithdallas said:

Like I said teams with elite QBs are out of range normally for elite RBs that's why they don't have both normally and teams that have elite RBs normally are bottom of the league and don't have a QB. Show me 1 QB that has won a superbowl by himself in the last 20 years I will wait. 

Nobody.... never said that though... round and round....lol.  

Just now, Fireeagle27 said:

I agree that if building a team around an "elite" RB is your goal, you will probably never see a superbowl and that it is easier if you do it with an "elite" QB, but you can have the most elite QB in the world and if the team around him sucks, that team will remain at the bottom or mediocre at best.  It's the team as a whole that needs to gel and exceed their typical performance that wins SB's.

YEP... agree 100%.  Never said the opposite!

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Tomorrow is Thursday .... waiting for someone to tell me I said that its not May... because if you read between the lines... I kinda hinted that it was Thursday, but that its not May.... lol.   Then a few pots later, I would somehow be on record as saying digital calendars are bad?   

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5 minutes ago, downwithdallas said:

Like I said teams with elite QBs are out of range normally for elite RBs that's why they don't have both normally and teams that have elite RBs normally are bottom of the league and don't have a QB. Show me 1 QB that has won a superbowl by himself in the last 20 years I will wait. 

See now... you can start a conversation ... as to reasons?    Does having an elite RB make you think you only need a game manager at QB?  Do teams with elite RBs struggle to find elite QBs?    Do the QBs think htey need to hand off too much and then not work on their passing game?   IDK... its odd though... elite QBs seem to find decent enough RBs over the years to have some success?   Yet AP and Shady seemed to struggle for a decade plus each to find that QB good enough to win some playoff games?    

IDK any of these answers ... but it is interesting as to why over time these elite RBs haven't had that ability to find either the QB or the team success?    But it does seem that teams have had more success building around that elite QB.   Reasons?... IDK, its another discussion though.

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2 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Nobody.... never said that though... round and round....lol.  

AP had 4 QBs drafted while he was with Minnesota was it his fault they were all busts? McCoy had McNabb after he started short hoping everything Vick, Foles and a bunch of scrubs in Buffalo, Charles had nobody in KC Lynch had nobody till Wilson came and won a superbowl, Bettis had nobody till Ben and won 1. You can list QBs and RBs but it's a team game. Without a decent QB or a good defense a RB can't win by himself but without decent weapons a QB can't win by himself either. No elite RBs have been surrounded by good teams in the last few decades or they have won superbowls.

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7 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

See now... you can start a conversation ... as to reasons?    Does having an elite RB make you think you only need a game manager at QB?  Do teams with elite RBs struggle to find elite QBs?    Do the QBs think htey need to hand off too much and then not work on their passing game?   IDK... its odd though... elite QBs seem to find decent enough RBs over the years to have some success?   Yet AP and Shady seemed to struggle for a decade plus each to find that QB good enough to win some playoff games?    

IDK any of these answers ... but it is interesting as to why over time these elite RBs haven't had that ability to find either the QB or the team success?    But it does seem that teams have had more success building around that elite QB.   Reasons?... IDK, its another discussion though.

It's actually really easy to find they answer teams don't let elite QBs or even just good QBs go. But you can get WRs and TEs on the open market and that is the difference. It's not an elite QB is better then an elite RB it's all about the team. If Jones is a good QB for the Giants we are in more trouble than they are going forward. Especially because we don't have either an elite QB or an elite RB. You can't be elite if you can't finish the season. 

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2 minutes ago, GreenbleedinFL said:

This is PROMISING!! Not that BR is the end all,still with Wentz and his receiving weapons,this is a nice place to be

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Funny. On NFLN they're discussing the Competition Committee getting the green light to write replay rule changes. Out of 32 teams, Rappaport says he can't wait to see how NE finds a way around them.

May change OT for the post season.

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2 minutes ago, mjkline1958 said:

Funny. On NFLN they're discussing the Competition Committee getting the green light to write replay rule changes. Out of 32 teams, Rappaport says he can't wait to see how NE finds a way around them.

May change OT for the post season.

They should make PI(or lack thereof) reviewable also,or I hope they do.DId like that about the AAF,the way they handle reviews

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27 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

See now... you can start a conversation ... as to reasons?    Does having an elite RB make you think you only need a game manager at QB?  Do teams with elite RBs struggle to find elite QBs?    Do the QBs think htey need to hand off too much and then not work on their passing game?   IDK... its odd though... elite QBs seem to find decent enough RBs over the years to have some success?   Yet AP and Shady seemed to struggle for a decade plus each to find that QB good enough to win some playoff games?    

IDK any of these answers ... but it is interesting as to why over time these elite RBs haven't had that ability to find either the QB or the team success?    But it does seem that teams have had more success building around that elite QB.   Reasons?... IDK, its another discussion though.

And I will stick to my original argument that Elite QB or elite RB doesn't matter without a good offensive line. Go through your list of superbowl teams more have won it with lesser QBs then bad offensive lines.

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13 minutes ago, downwithdallas said:

It's actually really easy to find they answer teams don't let elite QBs or even just good QBs go. But you can get WRs and TEs on the open market and that is the difference. It's not an elite QB is better then an elite RB it's all about the team. If Jones is a good QB for the Giants we are in more trouble than they are going forward. Especially because we don't have either an elite QB or an elite RB. You can't be elite if you can't finish the season. 

Right... so again... the facts remain about the last 2 decades.... the reasons, we can debate them.   I like all your reasons.  for some reason I think you are trying to make an argument against me for something I didn't say?    IDK ... I just know that I like our Eagles situation going forward more than the Giants and Dallas whom I believe will invest/rely too much on their RBs.    You want to have the Wentz discussion, thats another thing ... but I do agree with you that the key to the Giants will be their QB.   My hope, is he is just good enough to play along the elite RB in Barkley... and it will be Shady/ AP all over again. with the bar set low for a QB in an offense built around the elite RB.  

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2 minutes ago, downwithdallas said:

And I will stick to my original argument that Elite QB or elite RB doesn't matter without a good offensive line. Go through your list of superbowl teams more have won it with lesser QBs then bad offensive lines.

Sounds good.... still my ONLY point was about RBs... no matter how many other points you make outside of that.   

But ... do teams think they can get away with average OL play if they have the elite RB?   IDK, something to ponder as to a reason why these elite RBs have missed out the last 2 decades on major success.  

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Don't know if anyone saw this

 

Lane Johnson donates $500k to Killgore College for a new athletic facility

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