VaBeach_Eagle

Black Monday: Who's on the Hot Seat in 2018? Who gets fired?

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27 minutes ago, skippyx said:

Who exactly do you want to replace him with?

Seeing as they're an NFC team, and in competition with us each year for playoff spots... Chip Kelly.

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I was right, there was an article on ESPN.com yesterday about how the writer was troubled with all the Black head coaches getting fired.  Nevermind that they had shown they were not capable of performing at the level their employers wanted.

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I have to say i agree with all of the firings this year and I also agree with all the non firings.  The guy I feel bad for is Todd Bowles, dude was given absolutely nothing to work with in 4 friigin years.  I hope he lands on his feet with a sweet DC post.

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45 minutes ago, xzmattzx said:

I was right, there was an article on ESPN.com yesterday about how the writer was troubled with all the Black head coaches getting fired.  Nevermind that they had shown they were not capable of performing at the level their employers wanted.

Let's look at the facts of the firings.

Black Head Coaches fired:

Todd Bowles 24-40 Overall Record
Vance Joseph 11-21 Overall Record
Steve Wilks 3-13 Overall Record
Hue Jackson 3-36-1 Overall Record

Black Head Coach who mutually stepped down:

Marvin Lewis 131-122-3 Overall Record

White Head Coaches fired:

Adam Gase 23-25 Overall Record
Dirk Koetter 19-29 Overall Record
Mike McCarthy 125-77-2 Overall Record

Maybe Wilks should have been given more than a single year, but was anyone crying when Chip Kelly only got one year in San Francisco? Adam Gase, record wise, would have an argument that he should have gotten another season, but it's not always just a 'numbers' thing when a coach has to be fired (see Chip Kelly in Philadelphia).

At some point, crying racism at every little thing, becomes racist in and of itself.

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51 minutes ago, xzmattzx said:

I was right, there was an article on ESPN.com yesterday about how the writer was troubled with all the Black head coaches getting fired.  Nevermind that they had shown they were not capable of performing at the level their employers wanted.

Most annoying part of the article was defending Marvin Lewis and how great he did FIFTEEN years ago. Sounded more like defending him for his color than his results. But that would be racist...

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3 hours ago, xzmattzx said:

I was right, there was an article on ESPN.com yesterday about how the writer was troubled with all the Black head coaches getting fired.  Nevermind that they had shown they were not capable of performing at the level their employers wanted.

Hold on their dude, I read that article and you are the one making out to be race baiting when it really wasn't.  The author did not question any of the firings, he was just worried that this was going to be a step backwards for black head coaches.  Especially because the "young college offensive gurus" that are in style are pretty much all white.

 

Your stoking a fire for your own damn reasons.

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8 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said:

Hold on their dude, I read that article and you are the one making out to be race baiting when it really wasn't.  The author did not question any of the firings, he was just worried that this was going to be a step backwards for black head coaches.  Especially because the "young college offensive gurus" that are in style are pretty much all white.

 

Your stoking a fire for your own damn reasons.

My take was that the writer wanted to ignore the negatives, which he listed and admitted to, but was still disturbed by the firings.

 

I thought all the firings were fine and expected, with possibly the exception of Bowles.  I thought there would be a little more leeway for him, with a franchise quarterback in his rookie season, and being in the same division as Brady.  Otherwise, the firings/retirements of Joseph, Wilkes, Lewis, and Jackson seemed appropriate, without regard for race.  Did the writer see them as justified or unjustified?

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28 minutes ago, xzmattzx said:

My take was that the writer wanted to ignore the negatives, which he listed and admitted to, but was still disturbed by the firings.

 

I thought all the firings were fine and expected, with possibly the exception of Bowles.  I thought there would be a little more leeway for him, with a franchise quarterback in his rookie season, and being in the same division as Brady.  Otherwise, the firings/retirements of Joseph, Wilkes, Lewis, and Jackson seemed appropriate, without regard for race.  Did the writer see them as justified or unjustified?

At no point in that article did he seriously question any of the firings other than Wilks and even Wilks he admits that 1 and done coaches have become common even if he doesn't agree with it.  The article only states that he is worried and laments, with good reason, that it is going to be a step backwards for minority HC in the NFL.

 

I don't recall anything in that article saying NFL should force more black head coaches.  It's something to keep an eye on and I think NFL knows that too.  Three minority head coaches is not where the league wants to be.

 

If you really think this was a race baiting article please post it and make your case, otherwise fake rage is not necessary.

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51 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said:

At no point in that article did he seriously question any of the firings other than Wilks and even Wilks he admits that 1 and done coaches have become common even if he doesn't agree with it.  The article only states that he is worried and laments, with good reason, that it is going to be a step backwards for minority HC in the NFL.

 

I don't recall anything in that article saying NFL should force more black head coaches.  It's something to keep an eye on and I think NFL knows that too.  Three minority head coaches is not where the league wants to be.

 

If you really think this was a race baiting article please post it and make your case, otherwise fake rage is not necessary.

The article that I read seemed to be someone wanting to have their cake and eat it too.  Each firing was spelled out as justified, but then the firings were troubling because of a "commitment to diversity".  In the case of mediocre Black head coaches, either you get justified firings or you get sustained diversity.  The writer made statements himself for justified firings.  So does he want mediocre coaches kept around for the sake of diversity?

 

I did not say that the article said there should be more Black head coaches.  On that subject, I think all candidates should be looked at equally without regard to race.  If no new head coaches hired are Black, I'm fine with that.  If all of the new head coaches hired are Black, I'm fine with that too.  Each team will hire the person that they deem fit for the job with its unique conditions.

 

This is the article I read:

https://theundefeated.com/features/future-of-black-nfl-coaches-a-concern-after-round-of-firings/

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8 hours ago, xzmattzx said:

The article that I read seemed to be someone wanting to have their cake and eat it too.  Each firing was spelled out as justified, but then the firings were troubling because of a "commitment to diversity".  In the case of mediocre Black head coaches, either you get justified firings or you get sustained diversity.  The writer made statements himself for justified firings.  So does he want mediocre coaches kept around for the sake of diversity?

 

I did not say that the article said there should be more Black head coaches.  On that subject, I think all candidates should be looked at equally without regard to race.  If no new head coaches hired are Black, I'm fine with that.  If all of the new head coaches hired are Black, I'm fine with that too.  Each team will hire the person that they deem fit for the job with its unique conditions.

 

This is the article I read:

https://theundefeated.com/features/future-of-black-nfl-coaches-a-concern-after-round-of-firings/

Either you suffer from reading comprehension or, as i am more inclined to believe, you are just stirring up race baiting claims on a whim.  Where is the sentence that confuses you?  Where does he say there is a lack of committment?  This is the only sentence I can see where you might understand that:

 

"Chris Grier of the Miami Dolphins will be the NFL’s lone African-American general manager. League officials insist they are committed to diversity. Well, the state of diversity in the NFL can best be described as abysmal."

 

He's right, it is currently abysmal despite all the tweaks, the gains made by the Rooney Rule have hit a major hiccup.  There are as of yet no suggestions by any of the numerous articles I have read on it calling the Rooney rule an outright failure yet.  We still have to see how many of these positions get added back on and you can't overreact to a single GM/coach cycle when that market is so volatile.

 

There are other articles that have gotten closer to the root of the issue: the pipeline.  Offensive coaches have always had the advantage for HC jobs but recently the trend is for young innovative Qb coaches.  With the exception of Byron Leftwich who didn't do that well in Zona, almost all of those guys are white.  The black coaches are disproportionately on the defensive side. Hopefully, as we get more black Qb's at the pro level, we will eventually get more black Qb coaches.

 

I believe this is also cyclical and you can't get carried away with it.  The most successful coach in the NFl is still Belicheck, a defensive guy.  Teams will eventually fall on their faces with enough Defillipo type hires that the pendulum swings back.  Heck, its possible there were too many minority HC hires because this copycat league started looking for the next Ron Rivera/Tony Dungy.   But in the meantime yes we should be vigilant and worried at where minority HC/GM hires have fallen.

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11 minutes ago, Mortimer said:

The league needs more diverse punters.

Plenty of hispanics and aussies and europeans among the specialists.  from a ninternational standpoint it is the most diverse group.

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2 hours ago, dawkins4prez said:

Either you suffer from reading comprehension or, as i am more inclined to believe, you are just stirring up race baiting claims on a whim.  Where is the sentence that confuses you?  Where does he say there is a lack of committment?  This is the only sentence I can see where you might understand that:

Dude, he questions every firing without discussing their failures. The lone spot where he mentions sucking, Lewis's playoff record, the author IMMEDIATELY jumps back to state:

Quote

"

It’s important to note, however, that Lewis took control of a hot mess."

That was SIXTEEN F'ING YEARS AGO! He didn't win a playoff game - a SINGLE. PLAYOFF. GAME. - in sixteen years.

Is Marvin Lewis really the prime candidate to annoint as the reason we need coaches to be a specific color? Really? Is his firing REALLY "unfair"? Final sentence:

"Of course, fairness is not part of this process. Wilks is the latest African-American coach who could attest to that."

Wilks had TERRIBLE in-game gaffes, and Rosen looked awful. David Johnson looked like David Carr. It's the same reason why Jeff Fisher was canned a few years ago: the QB of the future looked like the QB of a Pop Warner ADA team. And your stars weren't put in position to shine.

It's why Tampa came out and said the next coach WILL have Winston as his QB. It's all about the young QB and finding success with them.

God forbid coaches get fired when they lose. Here's a question: which white coach should have been fired (and wasn't) and why?

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1 hour ago, dawkins4prez said:

Either you suffer from reading comprehension or, as i am more inclined to believe, you are just stirring up race baiting claims on a whim.  Where is the sentence that confuses you?  Where does he say there is a lack of committment?  This is the only sentence I can see where you might understand that:

 

"Chris Grier of the Miami Dolphins will be the NFL’s lone African-American general manager. League officials insist they are committed to diversity. Well, the state of diversity in the NFL can best be described as abysmal."

 

He's right, it is currently abysmal despite all the tweaks, the gains made by the Rooney Rule have hit a major hiccup.  There are as of yet no suggestions by any of the numerous articles I have read on it calling the Rooney rule an outright failure yet.  We still have to see how many of these positions get added back on and you can't overreact to a single GM/coach cycle when that market is so volatile.

 

There are other articles that have gotten closer to the root of the issue: the pipeline.  Offensive coaches have always had the advantage for HC jobs but recently the trend is for young innovative Qb coaches.  With the exception of Byron Leftwich who didn't do that well in Zona, almost all of those guys are white.  The black coaches are disproportionately on the defensive side. Hopefully, as we get more black Qb's at the pro level, we will eventually get more black Qb coaches.

 

I believe this is also cyclical and you can't get carried away with it.  The most successful coach in the NFl is still Belicheck, a defensive guy.  Teams will eventually fall on their faces with enough Defillipo type hires that the pendulum swings back.  Heck, its possible there were too many minority HC hires because this copycat league started looking for the next Ron Rivera/Tony Dungy.   But in the meantime yes we should be vigilant and worried at where minority HC/GM hires have fallen.

Nothing confuses me.  I see an article where the writer is concerned about coaches who didn't produce getting fired.  I agree with you that this is cyclical.  So then why the concern?  This is how the league is nowadays.

 

More context can be found right at the beginning of the article:

Quote

 

A troubling year for diversity in the NFL ended on an awful note for the league Monday.

Four African-Americans — Marvin Lewis of the Cincinnati Bengals, Todd Bowles of the New York Jets, Vance Joseph of the Denver Broncos and Steve Wilks of the Arizona Cardinals — were among eight head coaches ousted in the annual purge that occurs the day after the regular season ends. Lewis, Bowles, Joseph and Wilks joined former Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson, who was fired in October. That’s five black head coaches let go in one season. And Wilks only got one — one — season in what the organization acknowledged was a rebuilding year.

 

 

I understand that the article then moves forward discussing possible future head coaches.  But putting focus on coaches that should have been fired (with the exception of Bowles, in my opinion) detracts from the argument.  If Anthony Lynn was fired after a playoff loss later this month, that would be troubling.  But I don't think it's troubling to see, for example, a coach with 0 playoff wins in 16 years step down from the job.

 

You may want to look farther back in the thread, where I predicted an article like this as the firings were taking place.  I anticipated an article alluding to discontent about these coaches getting fired, even though everyone generally agrees that they should have been fired.

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Bowles and Wilks should have been given at least another year.  Give Bowles a good WR, RB and TE for Darnold to work with then see where it goes.  Not sure what you expect from Wilks in 1 year with a rookie QB and they're basically rebuilding.  Unless something goes on behind the scenes where Wilks and the front office don't get along or something.

 

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2 hours ago, dawkins4prez said:

Plenty of hispanics and aussies and europeans among the specialists.  from a ninternational standpoint it is the most diverse group.

Aussies and Europeans are not a particular race.  If they are, then race of the league is 98% Americans.

When the NFL says diverse, it means black.  There is no concerted effort to interview asians or women for head coaching spots.

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I hope Hue gets the Bengals job, and is successful. Not because I like either the team or Hue, but because I don't like Mayfield.

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18 hours ago, IFB DOG said:

Most annoying part of the article was defending Marvin Lewis and how great he did FIFTEEN years ago. Sounded more like defending him for his color than his results. But that would be racist...

same as it ever was

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6 hours ago, xzmattzx said:

Nothing confuses me.  I see an article where the writer is concerned about coaches who didn't produce getting fired.  I agree with you that this is cyclical.  So then why the concern?  This is how the league is nowadays.

 

More context can be found right at the beginning of the article:

 

I understand that the article then moves forward discussing possible future head coaches.  But putting focus on coaches that should have been fired (with the exception of Bowles, in my opinion) detracts from the argument.  If Anthony Lynn was fired after a playoff loss later this month, that would be troubling.  But I don't think it's troubling to see, for example, a coach with 0 playoff wins in 16 years step down from the job.

 

You may want to look farther back in the thread, where I predicted an article like this as the firings were taking place.  I anticipated an article alluding to discontent about these coaches getting fired, even though everyone generally agrees that they should have been fired.

You want a cookie for noticing what everybody noticed that it was a bad day for diversity amongst NFL head Coaches?  Yes, there are a good 4-5 articles out there about it.  Black mondays are always tough and sad, and this made this one a little worse.

 

There is nowhere in the article where he attacks any of the firings (except sort of the 1 and done Wilks).  On a day where you can find 1000 articles piling on Marvin Lewis, this guy decides to look back on the positive but does not at any point suggest the Bengals should have kept him.  Most people agree that the firings Bowles, Wilks, Joseph (and Gase for that matter) say more about the dysfunction of the organizations than about the coaches.  There is nothing controversial about that.

 

You are not making any sense in your faux rage and cannot give a single example of an out of line statement.  You clearly just want to stir up race baiting BS and tell us all you told us.

 

Good Day!

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I feel like Denver HC didn't have a shot since he didn't have a QB. And Jets HC should have been given another year with his rookie

I think Panthers HC should go. Also the QB coach. Cam needs to work on his QB intelligence

Steelers locker room is a mess. Someone needs firing

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Irvin said something on Inside the NFL that fits the whole 'race' issue. When all is said and done, the color of the coaches skin doesn't matter, it's wins and losses on the field.

Win, and you keep your job. Lose, and you'll eventually lose your job. Skin color is meaningless. The sooner EVERYONE learns that, the better society will be.

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28 minutes ago, VaBeach_Eagle said:

Irvin said something on Inside the NFL that fits the whole 'race' issue. When all is said and done, the color of the coaches skin doesn't matter, it's wins and losses on the field.

Win, and you keep your job. Lose, and you'll eventually lose your job. Skin color is meaningless. The sooner EVERYONE learns that, the better society will be.

Couldn't agree more. And whilst I think the Rooney rule was a good idea years ago I feel we need to move past that. Give the job to the right man but don't ever base it on skin color. And ultimately now I feel some organisations just give lip service to the rooney rule. 

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9 minutes ago, TheGodfather said:

Bowles should be given another chance. He didn't have ish in NY

If I remember right, wasn't he an assistant in Arizona? I think they were high on him. So I wouldn't be surprised to see him get that job.

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