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Sack that QB

Will the Patriots just become "another team" once Brady/Belichick are gone?

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Every sport has "historic franchises" that just have that aura about them that make them different than other franchises to the sports world, whether we like it or not. Even when they aren't great teams, they never lose that aura and lure about them. The Steelers, the Packers, the Cowboys(I know), Lakers, Celtics, Yankees, Red Sox, etc. No matter how good or bad those teams are, those are always going to be teams in the minds of the sports world. Not all of them, but many of them you know they'll just find a way to get good again because the weight the name of that franchise carries will just attract great talent and coaches to it eventually.

Though, as the Chicago Bulls have shown us, that is something hard to acquire. You can have a decade of incredible success and tons of championships... (or in the Patriots' case "championships") and still not get there. Once Jordan and Pippen left the Bulls, they just became another NBA team. They didn't have the lure the Lakers or Celtics had, players weren't beating down the doors to go play there, etc.

Before Brady and Belichick got to the Patriots, they were just another NFL team. When they leave, have they done enough that they will still carry that lure and that notoriety that the historic NFL franchises have, or will they become just another NFL team again like they were before?

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4 hours ago, Sack that QB said:

Every sport has "historic franchises" that just have that aura about them that make them different than other franchises to the sports world, whether we like it or not. Even when they aren't great teams, they never lose that aura and lure about them. The Steelers, the Packers, the Cowboys(I know), Lakers, Celtics, Yankees, Red Sox, etc. No matter how good or bad those teams are, those are always going to be teams in the minds of the sports world. Not all of them, but many of them you know they'll just find a way to get good again because the weight the name of that franchise carries will just attract great talent and coaches to it eventually.

Though, as the Chicago Bulls have shown us, that is something hard to acquire. You can have a decade of incredible success and tons of championships... (or in the Patriots' case "championships") and still not get there. Once Jordan and Pippen left the Bulls, they just became another NBA team. They didn't have the lure the Lakers or Celtics had, players weren't beating down the doors to go play there, etc.

Before Brady and Belichick got to the Patriots, they were just another NFL team. When they leave, have they done enough that they will still carry that lure and that notoriety that the historic NFL franchises have, or will they become just another NFL team again like they were before?

Well technically the Patriots were a very good team with parcells and that carried over to belichick. I know Pete Carroll was there directly after parcells but, he didn't don't badly either. So it can carry over depending if they make the right moves in the next regime

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Personally yes I think once they are gone the Pats will become "just another team". Maybe they can build back up in time but it's going to leave a huge gaping hole once they leave. 

Being from the UK and having grown up with soccer I can point to the loss of Sir Alex at Manchester United. United haven't been the same since, in fact they've become a shadow of that they were at best. 

The next couple of years are going to be very interesting for the Pats because it seems like the dynasty is starting to crumble. Players are starting to speak out. Players have left and Brady was contemplating retirement. 

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The Pats are the Eagles of the AFC. They will always be dangerous and will be able to contend in any given year.  The ownership is very much like our own.  

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18 hours ago, bwestbrook36 said:

Well technically the Patriots were a very good team with parcells and that carried over to belichick. I know Pete Carroll was there directly after parcells but, he didn't don't badly either. So it can carry over depending if they make the right moves in the next regime

They were average under Carroll.  Not a bad team, but average.

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It all comes down to ownership.  The Steelers are always in the playoffs, and win a title every once in a while, despite new players and a new coach every generation, because the ownership has remained the same.  So, the franchise is run well year after year.

 

Robert Kraft is a good owner and has made good hiring decisions.  I expect the Patriots to still be a good team even after Brady and Belichick are done.

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4 hours ago, xzmattzx said:

Robert Kraft is a good owner and has made good hiring decisions.  I expect the Patriots to still be a good team even after Brady and Belichick are done.

Perhaps you are right. But I'm not sure any franchise has ever lost both a HoF HC and QB at similar times? And that could happen in this situation so we are in to unchartered territory there. 

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5 hours ago, xzmattzx said:

It all comes down to ownership.  The Steelers are always in the playoffs, and win a title every once in a while, despite new players and a new coach every generation, because the ownership has remained the same.  So, the franchise is run well year after year.

 

Robert Kraft is a good owner and has made good hiring decisions.  I expect the Patriots to still be a good team even after Brady and Belichick are done.

Kraft is getting older, and a HOF coach and HOF QB are very very difficult to replace.  The Pats caught lightening in a bottle with these two.

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1 hour ago, Procus said:

Kraft is getting older, and a HOF coach and HOF QB are very very difficult to replace.  The Pats caught lightening in a bottle with these two.

Exactly. I mean look at the dynasties throughout the history of the game. They do fall away at some point. That doesn't mean to say that they won't come back one day though. 

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I think every team goes through periods of being an average team. And this Renaissance that they are having isn't as much Belichek but Brady. Everything goes through him and he is the reason why they are the team the are. He also the prime example that in the NFL the quarterback is by far the most important position on the field. How many Patriot coaches have done anything after leaving?  O'Brian is all I can think and even there he's on the hot seat -Watson saved his job. We remember the great teams for their great quarterbacks save for a very few exceptions. 

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Pretty tough to lose the best QB who ever played the game and continue to perform at a high level......they rarely had great defenses, but that offense was a machine with brady.

Belechick will have a hard time replacing that production and players are changing too......the "STFU and do your job" seems to grate players now, they're more sensitive to feelings than in the past.  

If Belechick retires, yes, the NE Patriots will go thru the same type of transition any NFL team does to find a new HC.

 

 

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How bizarre would it be if Brady retires after next season and Belichick signs Nick Foles?

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They are definitely going to regress. They won't become basement dwellers but the AFC east will no longer be guaranteed for them year after year.

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How long would you give them after Brady/Belichick leaves the team until you deem them just another team?

In the original thread the Cowboys were used as an example of excellence and has draw, but they haven't really been relevant and had one title contender in the last 20 years or so. I feel in the NFL only the Steelers have been consistent through out the various decades and always seem to have that draw. Packers are close, starting off as the hot team, going into a slump, then getting Favre and then Rodgers.

I think the Patriots, and Boston area in general, has enough draw that this team won't fade. They might have a few really poor seasons after those guys are gone, but I think the max you see them off their game is maybe 5 seasons. Their division is also so bad that it might not ever happen either. Bills Jets and Dolphins all have been laughably bad. Through out this same stretch with Brady and Belichick those teams have done pretty much nothing. The bar might be set low for the Patriots with those 2 gone anyways.

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It's really a stupid original post.  Of course they're going to slip.  7 straight AFCCG don't happen without the HOF coach and HOF QB

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They haven't drafted particularly well and the coach was forced to trade away the QB of the future.

When Belichick leaves they are in danger of becoming irrelevant for over a decade. Belichick IS the Patriots success.

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On 7/17/2018 at 10:54 PM, Procus said:

It's really a stupid original post.  Of course they're going to slip.  7 straight AFCCG don't happen without the HOF coach and HOF QB

That was not what the original post asked at all.

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1 hour ago, SBorBust said:

They haven't drafted particularly well and the coach was forced to trade away the QB of the future.

When Belichick leaves they are in danger of becoming irrelevant for over a decade. Belichick IS the Patriots success.

BB does not win 5 SB's sans Brady IMO

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On 7/11/2018 at 11:12 PM, xzmattzx said:

Robert Kraft is a good owner and has made good hiring decisions.  I expect the Patriots to still be a good team even after Brady and Belichick are done.

Coaches don't win games, players do.  The cupboard is pretty bare in New England.  There is no "heir apparent" to Tom Brady.  Josh McDaniels / <QB to be named> is not going to instill fear in the hearts of any opposing DC.  I think they are going to have a rough couple of years after Brady / Bellichick goes.  

On 7/14/2018 at 3:11 PM, skippyx said:

How bizarre would it be if Brady retires after next season and Belichick signs Nick Foles?

Please no.  I don't want to root for Nick to fail, but this will put me in a tough spot.  Would New England even be an attractive place to play?  I'd pick Jacksonville or Denver over New England.  There's a ton of pressure to be "the next Tom Brady" for the Pats, but there would be no such pressure in Jacksonville. 

 

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I think Belichick would move to the front office either as a GM or a consultant. I think he loves football too much to leave it. But, I don't think he would have the patience to rebuild it as a coach.

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3 hours ago, EricAllenPick6 said:

Coaches don't win games, players do.  The cupboard is pretty bare in New England.  There is no "heir apparent" to Tom Brady.  Josh McDaniels / <QB to be named> is not going to instill fear in the hearts of any opposing DC.  I think they are going to have a rough couple of years after Brady / Bellichick goes.

 

Coaches can lose games, though.  Surely you learned that after watching Andy "Time Management" Reid.  Belichick will still win an extra 1 or 2 games a year based on outcoaching an opponent, and that may be enough to win a division, win a first round bye, etc.

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On 7/22/2018 at 9:24 PM, Procus said:

BB does not win 5 SB's sans Brady IMO

That's not true at all. In NE's first run of championships, O1, 03, and 04, Brady was little more than a game manager. They were a solid defensive team and Bill would frustrate the hell out of top flight QBs like Warner and P. Manning. They won those championships far more because of Bill than they did Tom. Tom was good, but he was not the elite QB yet that he would later become. In SB 36, Tom had all of 145 yards in the game. Alleged cheating aside, they won that game because of the way their secondary played. Brady won the MVP because there really wasn't any one person to give it to. Ty Law was actually the best player on the field for them. In SB 39, against us, Tom only had 236 yards passing and the team only had 331 total yards. That's a drastic difference compared to the SBs against Seattle, Atlanta, and then us again. Tom did play a bigger role in SB 38 though. 

Throughout the years, Tom became more of the focus of the team and the defense dropped off dramatically. Eventually, Tom became great and led them to their 2 most recent championships. Did Tom become great because of Bill though? That's a fair question as Bill has obviously had an enormous impact on his career. 

I don't think you can say that either of them are solely responsible for their success, its been both of them. Over the last 7 years, its been far more Brady than Bill, but the reverse is true for their early run. I'd say that without Brady, NE still wins at least 2 of those titles (01 and 04). Bill doesn't win SB49 or SB51 without Tom though. I think SB38 was mostly a joint effort, but Tom was very much the goat in SB42 and 46 against the Gnats. Bill clearly let Tom down against us in February. Its pretty much equal...

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27 minutes ago, Lou3824 said:

That's not true at all. In NE's first run of championships, O1, 03, and 04, Brady was little more than a game manager. They were a solid defensive team and Bill would frustrate the hell out of top flight QBs like Warner and P. Manning. They won those championships far more because of Bill than they did Tom. Tom was good, but he was not the elite QB yet that he would later become. In SB 36, Tom had all of 145 yards in the game. Alleged cheating aside, they won that game because of the way their secondary played. Brady won the MVP because there really wasn't any one person to give it to. Ty Law was actually the best player on the field for them. In SB 39, against us, Tom only had 236 yards passing and the team only had 331 total yards. That's a drastic difference compared to the SBs against Seattle, Atlanta, and then us again. Tom did play a bigger role in SB 38 though. 

Throughout the years, Tom became more of the focus of the team and the defense dropped off dramatically. Eventually, Tom became great and led them to their 2 most recent championships. Did Tom become great because of Bill though? That's a fair question as Bill has obviously had an enormous impact on his career. 

I don't think you can say that either of them are solely responsible for their success, its been both of them. Over the last 7 years, its been far more Brady than Bill, but the reverse is true for their early run. I'd say that without Brady, NE still wins at least 2 of those titles (01 and 04). Bill doesn't win SB49 or SB51 without Tom though. I think SB38 was mostly a joint effort, but Tom was very much the goat in SB42 and 46 against the Gnats. Bill clearly let Tom down against us in February. Its pretty much equal...

Have to disagree Lou.  Yes, the Pats had great defensive teams, but if you recall, in the first two SB wins, Brady had game winning drives at the end to pull out the victories against St. Louis and Carolina.  Nobody knows if they pull out those games sans Brady.  There is the clutch element you are overlooking.

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11 minutes ago, Procus said:

Have to disagree Lou.  Yes, the Pats had great defensive teams, but if you recall, in the first two SB wins, Brady had game winning drives at the end to pull out the victories against St. Louis and Carolina.  Nobody knows if they pull out those games sans Brady.  There is the clutch element you are overlooking.

You mean like the clutch element that Adam Vinatieri had in their first two wins? They don't even get out of the playoffs without him in 01. Where was that clutch element from Tom in SBs 42,46 and 52? Yes, I said 52. If you can give Tom credit for a SB where he had only 145 yards because of the "clutch" element, then I can just as easily point the finger of blame at him in a game where he threw for over 500 yards. Both POVs are rather absurd actually. 

We could go back and forth on this forever, but I'll stick by my statement that it was both of them. Bill clearly knows what he's doing as he was the architect of two SB winning defenses as the DC with the Giants, then later built the majority of the Browns/Ravens team that won in 00. Tom became a great player, but Bill has enough on his resume that he's still pretty good without Tom. Would Tom have become great without Bill? We will never know because he only ever played for Bill. I seriously doubt he's talked about (mostly by those with recency bias that forget just how great Montana really was) as the GOAT without Bill shaping him into the player he would eventually become. 

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