55thAndRams

If the Rams win the Super Bowl, who "won a Super Bowl" first, Goff or Wentz?

If the Rams win the Super Bowl, who "won a Super Bowl" first, Goff or Wentz?  

71 members have voted

  1. 1. If the Rams win the Super Bowl, who "won a Super Bowl" first, Goff or Wentz?

    • Goff
      43
    • Wentz
      28


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20 hours ago, The_Talon said:

Wentz got hurt so late in the season, the reality is that Wentz won one first.

If Aikman got hurt late in the season in 1992 and Steve Buerlein finished the deal,

I wouldn't have said Aikman didn't earn it, or didn't win crap. 

Agree . . . especially since the Cowpies trophy case (except for division wins) has been empty since 1995.

Don't know why this is even an issue.    :huh: 

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Guest MH1989

Who played and started in a Super Bowl first? Jared Goff

So from an on the field perspective, in that Jared Goff played the full season, played in the play offs and won in the play offs, and then went on to play in and win the Super Bowl - then I'd say Jared Goff "won" a Super Bowl first. However, I can see the argument behind Wentz. First, he won a ring first. Second, without his contributions pre-injury we likely would not have had the same win-loss record and would not have been in the same position with Foles under center (sorry Foles fans!). After all, football is a team game, so Wentz deserves credit for that achievement. So while Goff would actually physically play in and win a Super Bowl first, Wentz played an important part in our journey to winning the Super Bowl.

So it's really dependant on the question and what criteria you place on a Super Bowl win. If they had to play in the game, Goff. If we take their team achievement into account and their role on the journey to the win, Wentz.

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Schmoopie and I had a mini debate over this.  She doesn't want to see the rams win because that means Goff gets a ring first.  I said Wentz has a ring.  She said Goff would have earned his first.  I said Wentz put us in a position for the #1 seed last year so he earned his.  Then we went back to watching a cooking competition. 

 

Whatever, don't care.  We got a ring.

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There’s no question I want Wentz to be on the field for postseason and Super Bowl wins. It won’t change my belief however, that he played a big role in us getting our first. 

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Wentz won SB first, but i am not sure the Eagles win the SB with Wentz, young QBs in the playoffs don't fare well, most of them lose their first playoff game...

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15 hours ago, VaBeach_Eagle said:

Having started and played in 13 out of 19 possible games, isn't 'nominal'.

I didn't mean "nominal" as in "in name only," but in the sense of "designated."  

Anyway, the more I think about this, the more I realize the answer is obviously Goff.  A quarterback's first playoff win is a significant rite of passage he has to earn--most QBs don't win their first playoff start--much less a Super Bowl.  Saying that Wentz won a Super Bowl just because he got his fingerprints on the Lombardi trophy during the celebration is just semantics.  Put it this way--if the Eagles had lost SBLII, do you think it would be fair to say of Wentz that he had "lost the only Super Bowl he participated in"?  

Of course, Goff has to actually win the damn thing on Sunday for any of this to matter. 

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1 hour ago, pencil face said:

Wentz won SB first, but i am not sure the Eagles win the SB with Wentz, young QBs in the playoffs don't fare well, most of them lose their first playoff game...

See this is where I am on the fence about that. One one hand Wentz was balling before he got hurt and even with the lull he had in Seattle, he was still the MVP leader. On the other hand, him getting hurt and everyone doubting the Eagles really fueled the team through the playoffs. If Wentz never got hurt, they would have never been an underdog (at least in the NFC) and maybe they do not have that same fire.

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21 hours ago, BKLYNYG said:

This is tough. I'm inclined to say Wentz, but I'm sure almost all Eagles fans and NFL fans in general would think otherwise. I spent the weekend in S. Philly and the majority of people I spoke with not only view that as Foles' SB, but most want to keep him and dump Wentz. Granted those people are just fans, and not football nerds like the people (myself included) that post on this board. 

The bigger question is has Goff passed Wentz in the QB rankings? All things being equal I think most would take Wentz, but aside from skill, availability is a QBs biggest asset. Wentz is one injury away from the dreaded injury-prone label. 

Accounting entire short careers it’s easily Wentz. His 2017 season was insane before he was injured 

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There's lots that go into winning the superbowl besides the game itself. The journey to get there is a long one and involves many aspects. Wentz was league MVP prior to injury and a huge part on why we got home field advantage. Home field goes a long way in helping a team to win games in the playoffs.

Do we still reach the superbowl if we had to play Minnesota at the Dome instead? Maybe considering the way the game played out, but the odds would definitely be less. And likewise, do we still reach the superbowl with Wentz at helm? Possibly, Foles didn't have a good game against the Falcons and we won thanks to tremendous defensive effort, and against Minnesota as good as he played, our defense also stepped up huge. Do we win the Superbowl with Wentz instead of Foles? Also possible, but its hard to envision Wentz having the same or a better game than what Foles did.

To me this is why it's a team achievement and should be looked at as such. Too many cogs to look at it strictly at an individual level, although I realize that goes against popular opinion when it comes to QBs.

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2 hours ago, 55thAndRams said:

I didn't mean "nominal" as in "in name only," but in the sense of "designated."  

Anyway, the more I think about this, the more I realize the answer is obviously Goff.  A quarterback's first playoff win is a significant rite of passage he has to earn--most QBs don't win their first playoff start--much less a Super Bowl.  Saying that Wentz won a Super Bowl just because he got his fingerprints on the Lombardi trophy during the celebration is just semantics.  Put it this way--if the Eagles had lost SBLII, do you think it would be fair to say of Wentz that he had "lost the only Super Bowl he participated in"?  

Of course, Goff has to actually win the damn thing on Sunday for any of this to matter. 

He played 13 games, that's not just a designation. He started and played in almost 70% of the 2017 Eagles games.

As I mentioned in an earlier post here though, there's two ways to ask the question of this thread. One is with regard to the Super Bowl game. The other is with regard to a Super Bowl Championship. Does the question that you ask above, about 'lost the only Super Bowl he participated in', mean that in this thread, you're only referring to the Super Bowl as a single game? Because if it is, then there's a lot of players who 'never won a Super Bowl', since they didn't participate in it.

Of course, that brings up another issue. What constitutes 'participation'? If it's just being on the field and actually playing, then coaches don't 'win' Super Bowls. Only the players who actually went onto the field during the 60 minutes that the clock was running do.

So I guess we need more clarification as to what you consider 'winning a Super Bowl' to be. Is it just an individual game, or is it a season accomplishment? Also, what do you consider participation 'in' the Super Bowl?

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Well, the reason why I put it in quotes was because I recognized the inherent ambiguity of the question.

I guess the best way to phrase it is this: Someone went into a coma the day after the 2016 draft , and wakes up this coming Monday. They ask "Who won a Super Bowl first out of those two guys." If you had to answer with one word--can't qualify or elaborate your answer at all--what would you answer?

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37 minutes ago, 55thAndRams said:

Well, the reason why I put it in quotes was because I recognized the inherent ambiguity of the question.

I guess the best way to phrase it is this: Someone went into a coma the day after the 2016 draft , and wakes up this coming Monday. They ask "Who won a Super Bowl first out of those two guys." If you had to answer with one word--can't qualify or elaborate your answer at all--what would you answer?

Do you believe that only the players who play in that individual game should get 'credit' for winning the championship?

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Let's see how a couple of NFL research resources look at it... so if someone who'd been oblivious of all sports since the 2016 draft, and was researching Goff and Wentz as of this moment, this is what they'd see.

First, their pro-football-reference pages:

Wentz_Goff_PFR.thumb.jpg.c98b74bd27156ac1efbffe4f6231df60.jpg

 

 

Their Wikipedia pages:

 

 

Wentz_Goff_Wiki.jpg.41aca0f2b9c37beeabbefca4df72b21d.jpg

 

Now, assume that the Rams win next Sunday. On the Wikipedia page for Goff, it would say "Super Bowl champion (LIII)", on Wentz's, it would say "Super Bowl champion (LII)".

Just going by those resources, who won a Super Bowl championship first, Wentz or Goff?

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1 hour ago, VaBeach_Eagle said:

 

Just going by those resources, who won a Super Bowl championship first, Wentz or Goff?

If you want to go down the technical road, that's fine, but if you do, you have to be willing to walk all the way down it.  Which quarterback from the 2016 quarterback draft class won a Super Bowl first?

Jacoby Brissett. 

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1 hour ago, 55thAndRams said:

If you want to go down the technical road, that's fine, but if you do, you have to be willing to walk all the way down it.  Which quarterback from the 2016 quarterback draft class won a Super Bowl first?

Jacoby Brissett. 

It's not a matter of going down a 'technical road', it's trying to clarify the question that you're asking. Are you asking about the Super Bowl as a single game, or are you asking about a Super Bowl Championship as a seasons accomplishment? If you're asking about it as a 'single game', then you answered your own question before asking it.

In the 'single game' scenario, if  the Rams win and if Goff plays, then he 'won a Super Bowl game' before Carson Wentz.

So, do you view it as just a single game or do you view it as a season long accomplishment?

One other indicator as to what the NFL (or NFL Films) thinks the answer to the question of whether Carson Wentz is a Super Bowl Winner or not is their America's Game production for 2017. This episode of their annual Super Bowl Champions series is the first (and only so far) installment (out of 52) where two Quarterbacks are featured as narrators. 

 

 

As for Brissett, yes, he won a Super Bowl Championship in 2016. I have no issues with accepting that as fact. It's the reality of the situation. But are you equating his 2016 situation to Carson Wentz's in 2017? Brissett started in 12.5% (2) of the 2016 Patriots regular season games. Carson Wentz started in 81.25% (13) of the 2017 Eagles regular season games.

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Wentz won a Super Bowl first. If Goff wins, he wins first as a starting QB in the Super Bowl.

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21 hours ago, 55thAndRams said:

Put it this way--if the Eagles had lost SBLII, do you think it would be fair to say of Wentz that he had "lost the only Super Bowl he participated in"? 

No, because Wentz didn't participate in the Super Bowl. He was on IR.

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I'm fairly certain that if you sat down with Carson Wentz and he was being truly honest and transparent he would say that while he has a ring, he did not win the Super Bowl.

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1 minute ago, voodoochile75 said:

I'm fairly certain that if you sat down with Carson Wentz and he was being truly honest and transparent he would say that while he has a ring, he did not win the Super Bowl.

Saying that he "did not win the Super Bowl", is the same as saying "he did not win the Raiders game". What would he say if you sat down with him and ask him if he's ever won a Super Bowl Championship?

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On 1/28/2019 at 11:12 AM, 55thAndRams said:

I didn't mean "nominal" as in "in name only," but in the sense of "designated."  

Anyway, the more I think about this, the more I realize the answer is obviously Goff.  A quarterback's first playoff win is a significant rite of passage he has to earn--most QBs don't win their first playoff start--much less a Super Bowl.  Saying that Wentz won a Super Bowl just because he got his fingerprints on the Lombardi trophy during the celebration is just semantics.  Put it this way--if the Eagles had lost SBLII, do you think it would be fair to say of Wentz that he had "lost the only Super Bowl he participated in"?  

Of course, Goff has to actually win the damn thing on Sunday for any of this to matter. 

Dude...you really came here asking this?  Go get like 50,000 friends and become Rams fans so you can actually fill a stadium.

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I absolutely credit Wentz with being a huge part of our Super Bowl season. His play on the field put us in position to get the #1 seed and home field advantage in the playoffs. Foles has credited him with helping him prepare and coaching from the sidelines. He was a good leader and helped shape the culture of that team, which we now know was special.

However, if he played here 10 more years and we never got back to (or won) the Super Bowl, I think that ultimately his career would be viewed as a disappointment. He'd always get only partial, but not full credit, for the Super Bowl because he wasn't on the field.

Furthermore, what we still don't know is how he will handle the pressures of playing in the postseason. His contemporaries, like Goff, Mahomes, Trubisky, Prescott, are all gaining this valuable experience while Wentz is sidelined. Bottom line is, we still don't know if he can get it done when it counts.

I still believe in Wentz but I think you'd have to credit Goff for his SB win more so than Wentz, should that play out on Sunday.

 

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On 1/26/2019 at 3:16 PM, 55thAndRams said:

If the Rams win the Super Bowl, who should be said to have "won a Super Bowl" first between the former #1 and #2 overall picks: Jared Goff, or Carson Wentz?

(Related question: if Wentz goes on to have a Donovan McNabb-like career the rest of the way--a handful of conference championship and Super Bowl losses--will he/should he be said at the end of the day to have "a ring"?)

He already has "a ring" thanks in part, to his team mate QB (Foles) who picked up the baton to carry the team the rest of the way. 

We'll find out Sunday if Goff gets one. 

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12 minutes ago, back2nj said:

He already has "a ring" thanks in part, to his team mate QB (Foles) who picked up the baton to carry the team the rest of the way. 

I think that some people think that the 'Ring' represents just the Super Bowl, but it actually represents the entire Super Bowl season. If they had lost the Super Bowl, they'd still have gotten a ring. It'd just have been an NFCCG ring, which also would represent the entire Super Bowl season, it just wouldn't represent a Super Bowl winning season.

I've done a brief search for the Vikings 2017 ring, but haven't found it yet. I'm sure they got one, I'd be surprised if they didn't.

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