Captain F

Daks Agent wants $34m per year

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8 hours ago, boogyman said:

1 less than Preacott. Also has 2 less losses.

It's the around the NFL part of the message board. This is where we talk about other teams. 

And I hope that 21 games was a typo for 12.  If not find a new source for your stats.

The article came from 247 sports and I assume they are referencing some of his injury issues in college as well since they reference 4 years of injuries.

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1 hour ago, Hefty Smurf said:

The article came from 247 sports and I assume they are referencing some of his injury issues in college as well since they reference 4 years of injuries.

Yeah. Has to be. Something like 8  or 9 games his last year in college, 6 games in '17, and however many last year. I can see a number like 21.

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Makes sense if counting college. He missed a full season I think? 

 

Anyhow it's not like the Eagles had a big choice of whether to pay him or not. With any player you just hope he stays healthy, his contract looks fairly team friendly for a high paid franchise QB these days anyhow. 

 

I never bought into the "injury prone" thing for most guys. Every player is a hit away from being out for the season. Wentz just needs to be a little smarter and not try to turn every scramble into a huge play and he will be ok. I would lock him in a room and make him watch every Russel Wilson scramble over his career.

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1 hour ago, boogyman said:

Makes sense if counting college. He missed a full season I think? 

 

Anyhow it's not like the Eagles had a big choice of whether to pay him or not. With any player you just hope he stays healthy, his contract looks fairly team friendly for a high paid franchise QB these days anyhow. 

 

I never bought into the "injury prone" thing for most guys. Every player is a hit away from being out for the season. Wentz just needs to be a little smarter and not try to turn every scramble into a huge play and he will be ok. I would lock him in a room and make him watch every Russel Wilson scramble over his career.

I don't disagree with really any of this. I like Wentz.  If he would have been there at 4 when Dallas picked I would have been jumping for joy, but even with Dak`s struggles at times he and Wentz have been about the same QB.  We have been lucky enough for Dak to stay healthy.  You guys have a more polished player with more upside.  I think Dak is more clutch when it comes down to that last drive when you need some kind of score to win.  Wentz is a better passer.  We could trade off these things all day.  With that being said how are you guys better off signing Wentz to the deal he got than Dallas would be signing Prescott?

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34 minutes ago, Hefty Smurf said:

With that being said how are you guys better off signing Wentz to the deal he got than Dallas would be signing Prescott?

Because he's a better quarterback. If it's not obvious to you yet, you'll probably look back in about ten years and wonder WTF you were thinking at this moment in time.

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16 hours ago, Hefty Smurf said:

Can someone remind me how many playoff wins Wentz has? 

4 wins. Three in 2017 and one in 2018 (the entire team has those playoff wins). He also has a Super Bowl Ring... and before you try to diminish it by saying that he didn't play in the game, a Super Bowl ring isn't just for the individual game (though you do have to win the individual game to get one). It's for the entire Super Bowl season. That's why there's 13 diamonds in the base of the Lombardi trophy. 11 of those diamonds 'belong' to Wentz.

 

16 hours ago, Hefty Smurf said:

If the article I read was correct it stated Wentz has missed 21 regular and post season games in 4 years.

Wentz missed the final 3 regular season games in 2017. He missed the first regular season games of 2018 (because of the 2017 injury). Then he had the back issue and missed the final 3 games of 2018. That's 8 regular season games. In 2017 he missed 3 post season games and in 2018 he missed 2 post season games. That's 5 post season games. 13 total games missed.

Whatever happened in college isn't the NFL. Whatever happened in High School, isn't the NFL. Whatever happened in pee-wee, isn't the NFL.

From a certain point of view, I'm glad that Carson had to miss the 2017 post-season. Sounds bad, doesn't it? Sounds like I don't like Wentz, doesn't it? Not at all. It's just that the Nick Foles story was such a perfect way to win the Super Bowl. I was a Nick Foles fan long before I was a Carson Wentz fan, so having Nick come in and do what he did was just absolute perfection. Plus, it was SOOOO much fun to come on here (the EMB) and shove it in the faces of a few Foles haters (and Eagles haters) ... it was just a perfect scenario all around. One that I will bask in for the rest of my time on this Earth.

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43 minutes ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

Because he's a better quarterback. If it's not obvious to you yet, you'll probably look back in about ten years and wonder WTF you were thinking at this moment in time.

Based on what? Don't throw out an opinion.  State the facts and back it up.  Compare their body of work in the NFL.  Don't fall back to the old he won a superbowl.  Read  VaBeach_Eagles comments. The Superbowl is a team sport. The eagles were a better team in 2017 than the Cowboys.  Don't use college stats or college accomplishments those don't matter either.  NFL career wise these 2 guys have been virtually the same player and that drives Eagles fans nuts.  Look I said before and I will say it again. I like Wentz.  I think he is and will continue to be a good NFL QB.  I don't think he is elite, but he is good and he will probably get better, but to this date the fourth round pick has matched his play and exceeded his play in a couple of areas.

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2 hours ago, Hefty Smurf said:

Compare their body of work in the NFL.

Prescott:

975/1475 66.1% 10,876 YDS 67 TDs 4.5% 25 INTs 1.7% 226.6 YPG 96.0 Passer Rating

Wentz:

923/1448 63.7% 10,152 YDS 70 TDs 4.8%  28 INTs 1.9% 253.8 YPG 92.5 Passer Rating

Looks pretty even. But Carson's numbers are for 40 games, Prescott's are for 48 games.

I'll average out Wentz over 48 games, just to see what the "theoretical comparison" would be if Carson had played the same number of games.

1108/1738 63.8% 12,182 YDS 84 TDs 4.8% 34 INTs 1.9% 92.4 Passer Rating

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31 minutes ago, VaBeach_Eagle said:

Prescott:

975/1475 66.1% 10,876 YDS 67 TDs 4.5% 25 INTs 1.7% 226.6 YPG 96.0 Passer Rating

Wentz:

923/1448 63.7% 10,152 YDS 70 TDs 4.8%  28 INTs 1.9% 253.8 YPG 92.5 Passer Rating

Looks pretty even. But Carson's numbers are for 40 games, Prescott's are for 48 games.

I'll average out Wentz over 48 games, just to see what the "theoretical comparison" would be if Carson had played the same number of games.

1108/1738 63.8% 12,182 YDS 84 TDs 4.8% 34 INTs 1.9% 92.4 Passer Rating

If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his a$$ when he hops.  What if he just crapped the bed those 8 games?  See my previous comment on injury history.  The stats you gave are fact the if is not, but even with the if they are still pretty damn close.  Wentz was the 2nd pick of the draft  that you guys moved  way up to get (good choice not knocking that move at all) .  Dak was a 4th round selection that has outplayed his draft position.  He has earned pretty close to the same contract Wentz received.  TBH if Dallas gets him for the same contract I think they will be lucky.

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4 hours ago, Hefty Smurf said:

I don't disagree with really any of this. I like Wentz.  If he would have been there at 4 when Dallas picked I would have been jumping for joy, but even with Dak`s struggles at times he and Wentz have been about the same QB.  We have been lucky enough for Dak to stay healthy.  You guys have a more polished player with more upside.  I think Dak is more clutch when it comes down to that last drive when you need some kind of score to win.  Wentz is a better passer.  We could trade off these things all day.  With that being said how are you guys better off signing Wentz to the deal he got than Dallas would be signing Prescott?

I have not seen that it is obvious that Wentz needs a certain player to win games. Dak has shown he has trouble winning without Zeke running the ball. I will assume a lot of QBs could win games with a good O line and a RB that the opposing defense fears more than their opponents passing game.

 

We could go all day back and forth. Dak is going to get paid in a similiar way to Wentz and going forward one will probably be more successful than the other. But whatever happens, both teams will have had to have paid their QBs top dollar or be set back a few years at a time both are capable of winning now and in the near future.

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13 minutes ago, Hefty Smurf said:

If ...

I suppose you didn't understand what 'theoretical comparison' means?

You can't do a 'one to one' comparison because one of them has played 8 more games than the other. So to get a more clear image of 'one to one', you take the averages and calculate them over the same number of games. In this instance, it's not like we're spreading Carson Wentz's average out over 9 years or something to make a wild comparison. It's 8 games. The averages would be much more likely to stay pretty close over the span of only 8 games.

You can say 'if' all you want, but it's just for discussion sake and that should be understood. So don't get your panties in a bind.

After 8 games in the 2019 season, let's revisit this and see if the averages have stayed fairly close. That's assuming that there isn't an injury.

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43 minutes ago, VaBeach_Eagle said:

I suppose you didn't understand what 'theoretical comparison' means?

You can't do a 'one to one' comparison because one of them has played 8 more games than the other. So to get a more clear image of 'one to one', you take the averages and calculate them over the same number of games. In this instance, it's not like we're spreading Carson Wentz's average out over 9 years or something to make a wild comparison. It's 8 games. The averages would be much more likely to stay pretty close over the span of only 8 games.

You can say 'if' all you want, but it's just for discussion sake and that should be understood. So don't get your panties in a bind.

After 8 games in the 2019 season, let's revisit this and see if the averages have stayed fairly close. That's assuming that there isn't an injury.

Good enough

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Just now, Hefty Smurf said:

Good enough

I understand that spreading averages out like that to make a comparison is just 'fantasy', but it's the best we can do in a situation like this. Especially when training camps are still more than a month away. Gotta fill the empty space and pad the post count, because after all... post count is life.

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5 hours ago, Hefty Smurf said:

Based on what? Don't throw out an opinion.  State the facts and back it up.  Compare their body of work in the NFL.  Don't fall back to the old he won a superbowl.  Read  VaBeach_Eagles comments. The Superbowl is a team sport. The eagles were a better team in 2017 than the Cowboys.  Don't use college stats or college accomplishments those don't matter either.  NFL career wise these 2 guys have been virtually the same player and that drives Eagles fans nuts.  Look I said before and I will say it again. I like Wentz.  I think he is and will continue to be a good NFL QB.  I don't think he is elite, but he is good and he will probably get better, but to this date the fourth round pick has matched his play and exceeded his play in a couple of areas.

Okay, you got me. There are no "facts" involved. It's an opinion based on watching them both play. One is clearly superior to the other (doesn't mean the other one stinks) and time will prove this to be the case. 

Let's leave it at that for now. 

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Let him walk.  I’d like to see Dallas go thru another Quincey Carter, Hutchinson, Testaverde and Bledsoe era again.  

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I like Dak, i think hes a solid dude, having said that i think hes a qb that needs alot of pieces around him to be sucessful, having said that whats that put his value at as a qb?

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38 minutes ago, Utebird said:

I like Dak, i think hes a solid dude, having said that i think hes a qb that needs alot of pieces around him to be sucessful, having said that whats that put his value at as a qb?

I think it ends up around 30 a year.  Dallas has actually been doing a decent job of managing the cap since the Dez fiasco.  He was a bigger mistake than Romo IMO. Dak is going to be paid and I think they find a way to keep Zeke and Cooper.  Jones will be let walk.  Collins will be let go as well. They have drafted offensive line depth and developed some young guys who will step in those spots.  It will get pretty dicey, but they will move enough money to make it work.

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Didn't Dak set a record in 2017 for most consecutive pass attempts under 15 yards?  It was some crazy number, like 140 or something.  Easy to have a high completion ratio when you check down every single play.  

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Stole this from reddit,  but it paints the picture perfectly....

The stat that inspired me to write this up is actually a combination of 2 stats. There's the common viewpoint that Dak doesn't throw the ball downfield so I decided to look into that. In terms of intended air yards (average distance of all pass attempts without YAC) he is 23rd in the NFL with 7.6 IAY. Derek Carr is last with 6.3. Jameis Winston is first with 10.9. That's not great but there are guys like Roethlisberger and Brees that are actually below him in this category. So statistically speaking, he throws the ball downfield more than those guys. On the surface that doesn't look so bad.

Then I looked at average time to throw. Dak is 3rd in the NFL at an average of 2.96 seconds to throw. Drew Brees is the fastest at 2.56 seconds. Josh Allen is the most at 3.18.

So I grouped some people up. Of all 12 QBs with an average of 2.75 seconds and above to throw, only 3 of them have less than 8 IAY. Those three are Dak Prescott, Blake Bortles, and Brock Osweiller. The 9 that have above 8 IAY are Baker Mayfield, Aaron Rodgers, Josh Allen, Jared Goff, Deshaun Watson, Sam Darnold, Pat Mahomes, Alex Smith, and Russell Wilson.

Of all 18 QBs that are below 8 IAY, only 3 take more than 2.75 seconds to throw. Those three are, once again, Dak Prescott, Brock Osweiller, and Blake Bortles. The other 15 QBs are Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees, Nick Mullens, Carson Wentz, Andrew Luck, Ryan Tannehill, Eli Manning, Cam Newton, Kirk Cousins, Matthew Stafford, CJ Beathard, Marcus Mariota, and Case Keenum.

So what does this tell me? Well when you're in a group with Bortles and Osweiller and no one else, that's usually not a good thing. But it tells me that Dak's number 1 problem as a QB is his inability to read a defense. It's not just the fact that he holds on to the ball too long, and it isn't just the fact that he's afraid to throw it down field. Some QBs hold on to the ball because they're 7 step drop players and they like to throw it deep (guys like Mahomes and Goff) then there are QBs that check it down quite a bit but make such fast reads that they're never getting sacked and they're constantly moving the chains (Brees and Brady). But then there are guys like Dak, Brock, and Bortles. Guys that are holding onto the ball like a 7 step drop QB but checking it down like a west coast QB. Dak takes too long to read a defense and stares down one receiver until it's too late. Witten pretty much said as much during the Monay night game when he called Dak a "one read QB."

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Dallas and Prescott will come to a contract agreement that is a little higher than Wentz's.  With the roster they put together, Dallas can't afford to D around with their starter and Prescott can be controlled for 3 years (1 under contract, 2 possible years with franchise tag).  So they both have incentives to get it done.

Prescott is a good QB.......Linehan was a bonehead OC, but Kellen Moore may not be much better.  Plus if Moore is installing a new offense, that may take some time to develop during the regular season.

Anyway, The cowpies are not going to let Prescott go, nor should they.....and Prescott's agent knows he not getting $34 mill a year.  This will be settled by training camp.

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This was a big part of the reason why I was happy that Wentz got his deal done early. I believe that Wentz is the best between Goff and Prescott. The risk with Wentz is a health one but talent wise I don't think you'll find people arguing too much.

If Goff or Prescott had their deals done first, then Wentz and his agent would be using the "he's the better QB of the three therefore he deserves more." And honestly their contracts would come in pretty close to the deal Wentz has right now anyways.

Then in a couple year, or maybe even after next seasons, guys like Watson and Mahomes will be cashing in on their deals, and this will look like a bargain in comparison.

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5 hours ago, Northern Green Wings said:

This was a big part of the reason why I was happy that Wentz got his deal done early. I believe that Wentz is the best between Goff and Prescott. The risk with Wentz is a health one but talent wise I don't think you'll find people arguing too much.

If Goff or Prescott had their deals done first, then Wentz and his agent would be using the "he's the better QB of the three therefore he deserves more." And honestly their contracts would come in pretty close to the deal Wentz has right now anyways.

Then in a couple year, or maybe even after next seasons, guys like Watson and Mahomes will be cashing in on their deals, and this will look like a bargain in comparison.

Yeah, besides the more I think about I think that Dak is worth at least $45 million a year. He is the Cowboys QB after all, he should be the highest paid ever!

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